Event timing - how late / early?

djberriman · Post by **djberriman** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:06 am

One thing that causes a lot of issues at slalom is event timing.

Events run late and sometimes even early. Then paddlers get in in the ear for turning up late and start get it in the ear cause they are 'on time'. All round it doesn't help the day go smoothly.

PA announcements can't always be heard some distance off or on the camp site.

I know you can watch classes etc but some times (esp at lower div events) classes can be a chaotic and paddlers out of order to keep the event running. So its not always easy to work out.

Hassling control doesn't work and sometimes its hard to get an answer.

I came up with the suggestion of a timing board near say near the start list or perhaps at pre start showing the delay (say +10) when running 10 mins late.

Some other bright spark had the idea of an event clock. So simply set the clock to match were you are in the event regardless of the real time and adjust as required during the day.

Both solutions may confuse........

I guess clever event software may even be able to display this automatically (the time or the delay).

Might help everyone be less stressed and those poor C1/C2 paddlers get less cramp!

Dadstaxi · Post by **Dadstaxi** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:27 am

Not sure what you are getting at, but I'm sure that those who have attended Prem/Div 1 races this year may have seen an improvement over previous years.

Taking your points.
The idea of an 'event clock' wouldn't work as wherever possible when an event starts late (for whatever reason - lack of judges being in position being the major issue we have seen at Prem/1's this year) then the starter in conjunction with the control will look to 'claw back' the lost time by dropping the start gaps, usually 60 seconds, down to 50 or even 45 seconds. If a clock / board were to be placed at start showing the delays this would quickly get out of date and be useless. At Div 3 / 4 events timetables are more fluid (boat sharing etc).

With regards to paddlers being 'shouted at' for being late or early(?!), I believe that in the rulebook it is the paddlers responsibility to be at start in time for their published start time and if paddlers aren't at the start for their published time their run may be forfeited. Wherever possible they are fitted into a suitable gap, or sent at the end of their class.

If the event is running early - usually owing to paddlers not 'showing up', start cannot 'make' you go earlier than your start time but will offer you the opportunity to go early. If you aren't ready and would rather wait for your allotted time then you only have to say and the next paddler will offered the opportunity to go down instead. If the event is running early & you turn up on time then you will be sent down the course at your allotted time (even though this may be out of number sync).

The only time I have seen paddlers shouted at for being early was at Interclubs but the starter (

) was given a different start list to the paddlers

. And an apology was made once the problem identified (Thanks Kate)

Paddlers turning up early or on time definitely helps the event run smoothly. Late paddlers cause a problem as Control need to know which paddler is entering the course so that the cards are ready for taking judges scores, timing clocks set, etc. A no-show or even arriving at the start 10 seconds before you are due does create an problem.

The golden rule to follow would be if you are due to go down the course at 10:00 then be at start or close to the start pool area a couple of minutes beforehand.

HTH

Dadstaxi.

andya · Post by **andya** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:18 am

Got to agree with you djberriman, event timing it can be a major cause of fustrations for paddlers and organisers.

As DadsTaxi said the "event clock" might be difficult to implement, so how about the simplest of solutions?

Like you suggested dj. A big whiteboard by the starter that can be quickly updated with three bits of info:
- The event is running:(on time / 10 mins ... late ... etc)
- Next class is: (D3K1m/D2C1W ..etc)
- Next class starts @: (time)

This then covers the scenario where organisers are squeezing time by reducing gaps between classes, caused by no shows. Paddlers walking up to the start could then easily judge their start times.

KISS?

Munchkin · Post by **Munchkin** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:37 am

Errr... have you ever been the starter at an event? There is so much "behind the scenes" work for the starter to do (I know we look like we are not doing much but in reality we are passing on info to the guys in control, passing info back to pre-start or the competitors (i.e. if there is a swimmer etc), holding onto lots of paper and equipment AND trying to stay dry/ warm depending on the weather!!! A white board that can "just be updated" is not going to work!!!

Further to that as Dadstaxis has already mentioned, when timing team are involved, we work hard to undo any lateness that might have been caused so we could be running late for a bit and be back on time very soon after that.

My advice is the same as Dadstaxi, it is your responsiblity to be on time. Watch the event (you never know, you might learn something...) and get ready at the appropriate time. If we are running early we can't and won't make you go if you are not ready, but if you are late we can and will either make you go down at a convenient place or not let you down at all*... So better to be early...

*though at lower divsion events etc this is less likely to happen because of boat sharing etc...

PeterC · Post by **PeterC** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:46 pm

Having worked both on Start and in control what we need to do is get it right. Steve and the timing team have worked very hard this year to get it right and with some signifcant success for Prem & Div 1. The last Washburn ran almost to time all day and I did hear an excuse for lateness that included the allegation that Washburn always ran late!!!

There will always be things that cause delays - the most common cause for late starts is not having all the judges in position - if you are judging you are needed to all be in position before competitors can be released down the course. It would be appreciated if everyone was there a few minutes before the scheduled start time not a few minutes after.

There will always be some things outside any control - Rafts at Tully can be difficult. We have even had a delay for too much electricity 390 volts coming out of a generator!!!

Organisers can help by leaving some slack between classes rather than having a start list with no breaks. After all we don't want to risk Munchkin catching the last K1 Man in her C1!

Competitors can help by making themselves available to start and going when they are supposed to e.g. not taking an extra 20 secs to cross the start line.

Lets hope next year is even better and whats left of this season goes well.

Peter

djberriman · Post by **djberriman** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:04 pm

I'm not particularly talking about Div1's, they do run pretty well, I also coach other paddlers at other events. It was more born from that experience and running events.

It can be very frustrating when a paddler does turn up on time and gets on the water to then find the event is running late. They can then get cold, get cramp etc.

I realise the starter is busy but perhaps the pre-start person could update a board. Anyway it was just an idea to cut down on some of the confusion (and argument) some times caused at start, reduce the hassle the starter can get from paddlers and reduce the number of paddlers sat on start area for no reason getting cold and cramp.

Its not a particular dig at anyone or any event, I actually thought this would be something we could use at our own event. Its just another way of keeping paddlers informed so they can be 'on time', reduce any hassle/arguments for start/pre-start and reduce the number of times start are waiting for paddlers.

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:33 pm

Call me old fashioned, but I always look at the start list, look at the paddlers at the start and do a quick calculation that tells me whether to get into the C1/C2 now or leave it another x minutes.

Little things like start warm up aroung paddler x or y (get old bones moving), get into boat as one of a-c starts and away you go - startight into a timing fault that causes a 15 minute wait.

djberriman · Post by **djberriman** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:09 pm

Hi CP.

Thats great for us who've done it a while, generally in Div1 (and no doubt prem) for instance we just watch whats going on as you say and get on to to warm up and magically appear in front of the starter in the correct order without another word being said (apart from no-shows! Grr!). Thats probably partly down to paddler experienced and down to the timing team who run events more regularly with more reliable kit etc.

But at lower level events I have often seen confusion happen, the starter gets grief and the paddlers get annoyed, leading to tanoy announcements asking people to hurry up or a lot of paddlers sat on the water for a long time.

Paddlers running out of order (perhaps because they are in multiple classes/boats) perhaps confuse those trying to work out whats going on.

So my suggestion still remains that a board showing where we are up to might assist paddlers and starter alike.

Anyway its just a suggestion that organisers might like to try (as I probably will) to see if it makes any difference.

oldandslow · Post by **oldandslow** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:38 pm

I think this is a great idea, Duncan. It will save organisers a lot of time on the tannoy and ensure that everyone gets the true message rather than the "Chinese whisper" version.

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:47 am

Let us know how it goes Duncan, just because I am a grumpy old man does not mean the sport should stagnate! Anyone else who wants to try it I will be interested to here.