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Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 11:09 am
by andya
Div 4 - If there are 16 people on the results. The last showing as one run only, but DNF with penalties recorded.
How many promoted?
Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 11:58 am
by djberriman
As far as I know.
For K1 - Its one in five (or part therefeof) of those who start - different rules apply for C2 & C1W.
Should be 4 promoted - They count as long as they start at least one run. They do not have to finish.
http://www.canoeslalom.co.uk/info/FAQs.htm#promotion
Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 12:13 pm
by andya
Thanks DJB .. that confirms what I was thinking. I thought it had happened again there ...
Would mean congratulations 
to Callum Gelver J12, from Shepperton on promotion to D3 @ Winchester
http://www.canoeslalom.co.uk/results11/ ... ls4OSC.pdf
Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 12:58 pm
by JamesH
Hi Andy,
I'm not sure that Duncan is right here. If a competitor does not finish a run, then s/he does not get a finish time and thus does not seem to get ranking points. This is the case in other divisions, and thus I assume is why only 3 got promoted at North Walls, as only 15 completed at least one run of the course.
I don't claim to be an expert here, so best to check with the person responsible for confirming promotions from div 4 to 3, but that is my reading of the rules.
When you know the definitive answer to this question, can you post it on here, as I'm the person who has been compiling the 'very unofficial' div 4 rankings.
Cheers,
James
Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 1:19 pm
by djberriman
As far as I know anyone who STARTS is included in the results and therefore counts towards others points/promotions.
I think you are correct they get zero points as they did not finish.
Check out Div 1 W Shepperton 6/3/2011 results.
As you can see there is a paddler who started one run but DNF, 2nd run was a DNS, best result was a DNF, got zero points but did count in calculation of points for others (1000/20 = 50). If not counted then points would have been more per place (53).
I'd suggest you drop Jim Croft an email for clarification but as far as I am aware (its so easy to be wrong) a starter is counted in the results, is used in points/promotion calculations, must finish to get points themselves. A DNS/DNS is not included in results and therefore any points/promotion calculations.
Duncan
Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 1:27 pm
by JamesH
Looks like you're right Duncan in terms of points calculations, but we probably need a definitive answer re promotion from Jim. Thus Andy do you want to contact him to confirm the position?
In compiling the div 4 rankings, I will go with what the results sheets say, and only 3 were marked promoted in the relevant class at North Walls.
Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 3:27 pm
by Nicky
I agree with duncan
if they start they count for points calculations (and promotion from div 4), but cannot be awarded points themselves.
4 should go up
Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 3:50 pm
by John Sturgess
Nicky and Duncan are right: 4 go up, not 3
Confusion arises from sloppy rule-drafting when we went over to a points system from %ages: word 'Competitor' is used without being defined (B4.1: 1 in 5 Competitors; B4.2: Points are awarded on the number of starters not the number of Competitors. Competitors had always meant starters, however, not finishers ...)
Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 5:39 pm
by andya
Thanks all, as suggested, I've dropped Jim an email and asked him to have a look at the thread.
Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 6:50 pm
by oldschool
i concur! 4 go up. anyone who starts either run counts in all points calculations and promotions.
Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 8:14 pm
by Munchkin
Might have to find out how that would affect the results from this weekends results then!!! He competed righfully so (as he was not aware of the promotion) in Div 4. Should his result be moved to Div 3?
Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 8:57 pm
by John Sturgess
This shows how the way we do things becomes cumulative - not helped by the fact that the Wagon Lane results are not yet up - so Hayden Ellis, who competed at HPP in Div 3, may have already been promoted to Div 2.
As part of the Strategic Review I am looking at ways in which this can be avoided, so that results are definite on the day. Any suggestions?
Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 12:26 am
by PeterC
As you know John this is not an isolated problem. We have had carnage here as a result of this in the past and I now track all the Scottish Paddlers from Div 3 upwards with the ranking list published on line showing what they need for promotion and indeed when I think they get promotion with a Health warning that I don't hold the official results.
Nick does the whole UK but it does not have all the detail needed to tell parents when little Johnny/Claire is getting close to promotion and the answer is perhaps to get each region to track themselves. You also need to chase results that don't get sent to Nick and quite reasonably he doesn't.
As to definitive results on the day................ Something to aim at but there are issues to yet resolve. ??? ???
Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 10:24 am
by jim croft
??? If you use the Simply Slalom programme written by Ken Trollope the Promotions & Points would be would be worked out automatically. See page 118 in the 2011 slalom Yearbook for details. Jim
Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 12:40 pm
by JamesH
Jim,
We've largely been talking about div 4 here, which I'm not sure would be covered by the programme you mention as officially they don't get any points at all.
In reference to the original question, can you please confirm that in a div 4 race originally containing 16 competitors, but only 15 with a finish time (one competitor started, but did not finish, either run), then 4 competitors should still be promoted at a div 4 race?