Unofficial UK Slalom BBS

Posted: **Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:39 am**

Welcome to the chat area concerning the introduction of an informal Masters League for competitors aged 35 and over. This topic begins with the following announcement that will soon be appearing on the UK Slalom Website. Please feel free to comment thereafter and try to stay on topic as much as possible. Here is the announcement:-

THE MASTERS LEAGUE
THE NATIONAL LEAGUE TABLE FOR THOSE AGED 35 AND OVER

In recent years, the number of veteran paddlers in the Mens K1 category has grown to be the largest section of all divisions apart from Premier. In the same way that Juniors here paddle in age bands of 2 years, the ICF Canoe Slalom Competition Rules have 5 year age bands for Masters, its equivalent of our Veterans.

I have been very vocal over the last year or two drawing attention to the need for age banding for competitors aged 35 and over to make more fair the competitions and to enable winners of those age bands, at events and at the end of the season, to be recognised for their achievements. In short, there can be neither pleasure nor satisfaction in a win for a 35-year-old competitor over one from the previous generation and there can be neither pleasure nor satisfaction for that older competitor to be beaten by a much younger one. It is simply not in the spirit of fair, reasonable and enjoyable competition.

At the recent BCU Slalom Committee ACM I was given the opportunity to express these views. Whilst there was no specific motion that could bring such changes about, there was a general indication of support and interest and I was invited by the Committee to take responsibility for setting about its implementation and I have accepted this.

My proposal is to informally administer an age banded Masters League based upon the ranking points gained by each competitor aged 35 or over in accordance with age banding set out in Rule 3.5 of the ICF Rules 2007. This states:-

A master competitor can compete in a Masters event in a year that he or she reaches the lower limit of the age categories. I.e. in the 35-39 age group in the year of his or her 35th birthday. In events that have more than one competitor in the boat the age of the younger competitor will control the category in which a crew can compete. Age group categories will commence from age 35-39 an increase upward in 5 year age brackets.

I further propose to categorise the age bands with an “M” prefix as follows:-

M35 Aged 35 to 39
M40 Aged 40 to 44
M45 Aged 45 to 49
M50 Aged 50 to 54
M55 Aged 55 to 59
M60 Aged 60 to 64
M65 Aged 65 to 70

These bands may need to be revised to 10-year bands if insufficient numbers become evident but this will only be known around the beginning of the 2009 season. It may even be possible to produce alternative banding for comparison purposes.

I will request the Name, Division, Boat Class, Gender and Date of Birth of competitors aged 35 or over in 2009 from the Bib Officers. The date of birth information will not be published or made available to any third party but this is, of course, essential to enable me to place each competitor in the correct age band.

PLEASE NOTE! If you do not wish your date of birth to be made available to me or if you do not wish to be listed in the Masters League for any other reason, please make this clear when you apply for your Bib for the 2009 season. However, I sincerely hope that everyone of Masters age will wish to be incorporated in the Masters League because the greater the numbers in each band the more successful, purposeful and enjoyable the League will be. I plan to produce a table that covers all DV’s in all divisions including Premier – the latter most certainly deserve recognition.

Once I have all the Masters details and have placed each one in the appropriate age band I will be able to produce a League Table based upon the ranking points as the season progresses. This information will regularly be updated and passed onto Nick Penfold who has kindly agreed to feature the Masters League alongside the event Results and Rankings on the UK Slalom website.

It is hoped that once this League has been informally established, administered and featured online for the 2009 season, a suitable motion can be prepared for the 2009 BCU Slalom Committee to have it formally incorporated into the UK Slalom Rules.

PLEASE NOTE! The Masters League is open only to competitors with Divisional Veteran (DV) status for the 2009 season and not those in the Veterans (V) class. This is due to the League being based upon divisional ranking points. I am hoping that all Masters will compete as DV’s in 2009 to produce one 35+ class rather than the two distinctly different DV and V classes we have at present. The Veteran class is very poorly attended at Prem/Div 1 level and as this seasons winner I can honestly say it is a worthless and hollow championship. I entered that class only to enable me to paddle Premier/Div 1 events making most weekends “doubles” for me. Whilst I enjoyed my paddling immensely, there was no sense of competition and this really detracted from my enjoyment of competition slalom. I am forsaking this in 2009 to compete as a DV for the first time and promote this new Masters League as I consider it will be greatly improved over the current Prem/Div 1 Veteran event.

I am unsure how well received this League will be with Div 2/Div 3 Veterans as they would be required to paddle as DV with associated promotion/demotion considerations. I therefore understand that, despite my own views, it may not be possible to dispense completely with the current Veteran class but I do ask for as much support for DV competitors to make the League well worthwhile. It has been suggested that it may be possible to build in some form of exemption from promotion/demotion but I personally do not see how this would work.

The Masters League is likely to be a “work in progress” as I encounter unforeseen problems and endeavour to overcome them. However, with both your patience and assistance I am sure that the Masters League can become a datum by which all competitors aged 35 and over can be fairly and reasonably measured, and winners can be rightly proud of what they have achieved.

Thank you for taking the time to read this announcement. Please feel free to comment on the Forum here and make suggestions, constructive criticism, etc to assist me in doing the right thing for this large section of the competitive field. I will create a new topic on the Forum titled “Masters League” under the sub heading “Rants and Raves” so that ongoing dialogue can be offered to everyone and we will then, hopefully, get the League fine tuned to make our sport more enjoyable for all Masters.

Peter Parker
Slalom Coach - Viking Kayak Club
2009 Div 1 DV (M50)

Posted: **Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:18 am**

Well done Peter!

I did post this proposal on here in August following consultation with lots of vets that I thought the Slalom Committee would then bring it to the ACM. After returning from my Autumn travels I discovered the motion hadn't been proposed (as the committee were expecting the working party to bring it) and time was out, so I was going to prepare it for next year's ACM.

However, all's well that ends well. If you need any help with this just let me know.

I know there are lots of vets (sorry masters) that were keen on having an aged band competition so it's up to all involved to enter into the spirit of this. Here's looking forwards to next season's racing.

Thanks - Phil (M50)

Posted: **Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:59 pm**

Well done spiderman. You've really grabbed the bull by the horns. I was going to change to purple next year, but now I'll stay as a Div 2 DV [M50] and support your league.

Re: one of the remaining problems with merging the Vs and DVs - the protection from demotion/promotion.
Demotion: I can only see it as a problem in Div 1. It is only fair that a DV couldn't expect protection from demotion from Prem. You can't be demoted from Div 3 and the way things are you only need to get a couple of good races under your belt and you're unlikely to be demoted from Div 2. And if you are, you could probably get re-instated since experienced paddlers tend to get put into Div 2 when they re-start.

Promotion: Nothing to discuss. If you manage to get enough points to get promoted with the present, tightened up, system, why on earth would you not want to go up ?

So, I can't see that there is any reason for anyone to take Vet Div2/3 bib other than to avoid being compared with with other racers on the day when the results are posted up.

Posted: **Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:52 pm**

I tried to post a comment on this topic a few weeks ago, but wasn't able to!

My point was that I'm sure that 5 year age bands is too many. Even ten year bands will probably be too many in view of the number of competitors nowadays. There aren't all that many of us who are over 60 paddling nowadays.

I switched to Purple at the start of 2008 because I knew I was no longer competitive in Div 2. But I'm not sure this new scenario would have made me stay in Div2: I'd still be last at most events; and (living in London) there are few Div 2 events I am willing to travel to. The Vet bib gives me more potential events I can practically attend.

If my only option were to be to paddle as a Div Vet I think I'd give up having a bib and simply paddle as a judge at any events I attend.

I guess I've reached the point where I paddle for fun. Slalom adds interest and stretches me – and the element of competition is an added incentive, but not in any way the main driver.

Roger Wisdom

Posted: **Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:22 pm**

Peter,

Three things

DPA:

There aren't many DVs in prem, but I am uncomfortable with handing over dobs without a change to the rule book or explicit permission from paddlers (as opposed to an opt out, especially when the bib form doesn't have an opt out).
Could we see if the bib application form could be amended to include a Masters box giving paddlers the chance to opt in - and ideally to state which grouping they want to be in (ie allow them to declare M35 when they are 47 if they wish).

Results from Events:
We will need to accept that at events DV will still be the norm. Many events use slasoft which doesn't cater for other age groupings.

Group Size
I would suggest 3 bands in the first instance 35-45, 45-55, 55+ as I think 5 year bands could be too small - especially in the ladies. Just an opinion of course.

Posted: **Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:52 pm**

OK, NP has now kindly posted the announcement on the front page of the website so I dare say a few may be posting here as a consequence.

Thanks for the positive comments above, it makes it all worthwhile

Roger, thanks for your input here. It is interesting to hear of the various reasons why people paddle of course. I think that if you could have or opt for protected status maybe that might suit you? You could then paddle Div 2's and any other events as a Judge maybe? Obviously, my aim here is to produce a fair and reasonable basis for competition which I understand is not high up your list. Maybe there will always be paddlers like yourself and maybe a set aside Veteran class should be retained for them accordingly. Hopefully, towards the end of the forthcoming 2009 season, the input of everyone will steer us towards a Motion or two for the Committee to consider so please comment during and at the end of the season so your views can be properly considered.

Dee, thanks for your comments

As a Bib Officer you are one who needs to be comfortable with your actions of course. And irrespective of numbers, I obvioulsy would like to see all 35+ paddlers in the League in all divisions. I suppose the good thing about there being only a few in Prem is that i can probably find the details from them myself, but a more "agreed" system in all divs would be more helpfull of course. I am not sure how easy or possible it is to now amend forms but that would obviously be something I would like to see. At this time, the Masters League is an unofficial setup that I hope to be the basis for an adopted format. Possibly any amended forms will be a result of that formal adoption process.

I think your observation that some may wish to compete in a lower age band is interesting as I had not considered that. ne of many things that is going to come out in the wash im sure! For now I favour everyone being in their actual age bracket though.

Regarding events results, yes indeed, DV will be the norm in formal terms. But,again, as the League is an unofficial matter with myself administrating it, I do not see it being much of a consideration for event organisers. My publication of the points will be indicating event winners in age bands and as no prizes will be awarded in this unofficial setup, competitors will simply be able to see how well they have done and if they would gain recognition for their efforts if the League were formally adopted.

Regarding group sizes, I concur with your expectations. However, I propose to fall in line with ICF Rules to begin with. Once I have all the competitors in the correct age bands I will see how all the Masters are spread throughout them. As mentioned, this will be very much work in progress and I am sure that changes and new ideas will emerge as the season progresses. I have not prepared a spreadsheet for calculation purposes yet but once this has been done, I suppose I can also do one for various age bands to compare the value to the sport and the participants and see which seems best for the numbers involved. Oh, once I am further down the line with this I could also possibly provide event organisers with a spreadsheet for them to quickly arrive at age band winners at the close of competition and before prize giving just in case they wish to mention who those winners are. I plan on spending a bit of time on this to get it up and running. Nothing fixed, hard and fast, just seeing how the whole thing pans out.

Stevo, (fellow M50!) thanks for your offer of assistance too matey. I hope I can manage it all in terms of admin but just your continued comments and competition on the water will do fine to begin with!

Many thanks one and all

PP

Posted: **Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:36 pm**

Nice work... good to see some action after all the talk. I don't think it would be difficult to include the Vets in the league. There are only a handful and their points are obtained by comparing with their division anyway, so there is already a direct comparison.

Posted: **Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:48 pm**

Thankyou Pete, I'm looking forward to my M35 ranking, and getting older suddenly has a plus side. 5yr bands is great. Who cares about trophies when you can see who your nearest rival is.

ps. you don't need DOBs from the compilers, just everyone's age on a certain date.

pps. I agree with the above, looking up what points Vet paddlers would have achieved in the main race, won't take long.

Posted: **Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:11 pm**

I agree with the above, looking up what points Vet paddlers would have achieved in the main race, won't take long

This is automatically done for Div 2/3 Vets, as I understand it, as that is how their league is ranked. To avoid confusion, you'd have to decide to just use the points from the higher of the two divisions that they have competed in. So, for these at least, spiderman's scheme would blend the DVs and Vets together very well.
It's different for P/1 Vets though where points are not calculated by comparison of times with the main race. Or is that one of the rules that was changed at the ACM ?

On the matter of numbers of women in the Masters classes - why not have a joint M and W Masters league ? Surely the differences in ability become less acute with age and it's more about experience.

Posted: **Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:29 pm**

Hey Stephen, there are not many good reasons to look forward to getting older so Im glad it looks like Im adding one

..... in no time at all you will qualify as a Grumpy Old Man like me!

Not sure about the ease/possibility of meldng DV and V results but will do what I can of course. Whilst comparing what a V would score in the DV event and awarding the V the points for that place, any DV or V finishing lower than that will then not have the right number of points if, indeed, the highest V was in the actual results list. Hope that makes sense! I will see what sort of a table I can put together in Excel.

Incidentally, on the basis of many hands making light work, if anyone here wishes to have a stab at laying out a self calculating Excel spreadsheet for the Masters League, feel free to let me have a copy and I will see which one, or combination, works best. I have not yet set about laying one out but will do so in due course. Several years back I ran a fantasy Formula 1 Grand Prix competition that was based on a huge spreadsheet that took me a while to sort out but it was well worth it .... I love a challenge

....which reminds me, I need to reduce the VAT cells on my business accounts spreadsheet before the next quarter.....always something to do it seems.....

Posted: **Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:30 am**

I am slighlty confused Peter, are you intending to recalculate the points for the DV, or take teh points as they stand? If the later, thne Vets (in div 2/3) get their points from where they would have finished, so a comparison is possible. OK it will favour the Vet slightly as ithey get points rounded up to the nearest place, and those below would have had less, but surely it is close enough for us GOM?

If you are thinking of something more complex PM me and I iwll see what I can do with Excel/OpenOffice

Posted: **Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:29 am**

Hi CP, I dont like the idea of anything complex in my life so i will be attempting to keep things as simple as possible!

My plan is (maybe was lol) as follows.

In each division use the DV points. Thats it. I dont wish to re-calculate or even calculate anything. My proposal is simply to use the published information in a league that will properly reflect the performance of one Master against another of a similar age. How about that for a concise summary!

This did not include V status paddlers. In Div 1/Prem, it would mean comparing the times to see what points a V would have got. But then, if they had paddled as a DV to actually gain those points, they would nudge all those below down a place and vary the points gained thereafter.

EG - A V finsishes 20th in Div 1 by comparing times/penalties. So you give them the same points scored by the paddler (DV or otherwise) at that position. Lets then say that the next nine places are taken by more V's comparing their results (I know this is unlikely to happen but it clearly demonstrates my point. Those nine V's take the same points as those divisional paddlers (DV or otherwise) and effectively "push" them down ten places and all the points gained would be incorrect. So I am unsure how this could be done without cheating DV paddlers out of their actual points. Does this make sense? Do I understand properly the points system or did I miss something?

As for Div 2 and down, I still need to look into that as I do not really understand the system there.

By all means Colin, knock up a spreadsheet of something you think will do the job.....anyone can have a bash at this of course

It would be wonderful if I received half a dozen and simply had to choose, rather than create, the best one lol.

Posted: **Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:26 pm**

Peter,

Not quite correct though, because the number of points per place also depends on the number of competitors. So if you start recalculating points based on inserting the Vets, everyone's points change (except for the winner)!

Posted: **Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:47 pm**

Thanks Dee, yes, I have realised how it all works now (1000/no of paddlers) so yes, as you say, it will change all but one result. Hmph! I think the person who comes up with a solution to integrate V and DV results (not that I think this is actually possible) deserves a Crackerjack pencil. And if you don't know what one of those is, I am puzzled why this thread appeals to you lol

Posted: **Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:52 am**

Just a query about the DV thingy and the bib application forms (I am not a DV but I guess as from next year will be filling in entry cards for a DV in denial!).

I thought that EVERYONE over 35 was a DV whether they like it or not. Then, those who are DV can opt into the new league thus giving further information as to their age. However, the bib application form seems to suggest that if you are over 35 you will be a senior unless you opt to be a DV and thus in the new league.

Can someone clarify for me before I make a mistake on the entry cards!!!

Thanks:)

Unofficial UK Slalom BBS

MASTERS LEAGUE - THE NATIONAL LEAGUE TABLE FOR THE 35+