JimW - I'm not sure how much you have used the entry system, but I suspect you haven't seen the current organiser pages.
At the moment I think we are concentrating on the output being the results card, why not have the system generate a summary report as well as cards for each competitor? (Oh wait, that is question 3 isn't it?)
Q3 is specifically about div 4s, but the system also provides other output. Cards were a very recent addition as most div2s and below need them. The system provides for csv downloads that can be opened in a spread sheet and manipulated as the organiser wants. In addition there are some onscreen finance reports (which could be printed) that, amongst other things lists, by payment, the entries by competitor
The summary can list all the different classes the competitor has entered (assume they enter them all in a single transaction, unless there can be a way to log back on to a previously completed entry to add additional classes?)
At the moment we do keep transactions separate. So if a paddler enters C1 and K1 at different times we will have two separate payment transactions (similarly if they enter different days at different times). The down side to this is that when we take payment there has been one occasion where one payment has gone through and the other payment has been rejected by the bank - this meant a failed payment email was sent out at the same time as the receipt which was understandably a bit confusing. But merging payments also has its issues - what happens if someone is trying to spread cost over two accounts etc.
Create a permanent login for each person. Use their NA and membership number along with name to make a unique identity. If they don't have a membership yet, their address provides a clue as to which NA they will join, and assign a temporary ID (like HMRC assign temporary tax codes).
We use email as login and generate a unique userID behind the scenes, but a user may correspond to more than one paddler (think mum with two kids or father and daughter etc, etc)
The big difference is that the HMRC is in control of tax codes and temporary tax codes. We are not. Even more than that the NAs are responsible for issuing the membership numbers (4 different organisations with varying degrees of computerisation, and none with systems that I have access to). The ranking database issues paddler ids but only for ranked paddlers. NA numbers can be stored on the ranking database, from where we can get them, but there are gaps.
- For each login have a tick box for K1, C1, C2, add a new class.
- When ticked each of the K1, C1 and C2 boxes opens up fields for division and bib number.
- When the add a new class is ticked offer a choice of C2 (ranked), K1 (div 4), C1 (div 4), C2 (div 4). If K1 or C1 was already checked above, the corresponding option here should be greyed out or not presented, similarly if either K1, C1 or C2 has already been checked along with a division of 2 and above, the K1 and C1 div4 options should be greyed out because the person should apply for a bib before racing. C2 has to stay live because it is the division below the division of the lowest ranked competitor so somone in prem for all 3 could still enter a new C2 pairing with a div 3 paddler or unranked paddler and they would be a div 4 crew. Of course this will all change if there is a proposal for a single C2 division and it gets passed....
This is broadly what happens. Selecting class will give user the correct options for division (more complex than you think as don't forget vets). The add button will appear for div 4s
- I haven't thought of a way to manage relationships involving C2's with unranked competitors, but I think for ranked competitors as long as each crew member can remember either the K1 or C1 bib of their partner they should be able to pick them out of a list
Did you know that just starting to type a name in the 'bib' selection box will bring up the appropriate paddler(s). No need for bib number. I have thought about ways of managing div 4 C2s but they are all more complex than I'd like. In some ways if scratch C2s can enter any race it is simpler (though I still need to know who the paddlers are to do MCD)
If they select more than one class which is eligible for MCD for a particular race, the system should be able to recognise that MCD is to be applied, although since only 1 competitor of a C2 crew gets it, the event also needs to track the C2s and make sure only the first person to claim MCD gets it.
. Also need to think about number of days and cancellations so much more complex than this.
In this way it should be easy to print off a record for each person showing exactly what they have entered, with whom, and how much has been paid, so that the entry clerk has all the info to hand in case there is any dispute.
Already doable!
Similarly, once a competitor is promoted, as soon as their new bib is available in the online system it should be up to them to change it. Maybe the system could then re-calculate all their future entries and change PU to new division, and cancel old division (perhaps generating a pop-up offering an officials entry). Also if a competitor joins their NGB after creating an entry, they should be able to update that part of their profile (which will change the temporary ID to a proper one and propogate the change to all events entered).
Expecting paddlers to update their own details is optimistic at best. Once a paddler is in the ranking system we can, and do, track promotions. PUs with accepted entries can be updated by organiser at push of a button. The only reasons that we can't completely automate this are
a) there are no defined rules as to what should happen to the paddle ups position on the waiting list at promotion.
b) we could end up with duplicate entries as paddlers have been known to re-enter in their new division on promotion without cancelling original entry
I can resolve b but my hands are tied on a
They will still need to present their card at control to prove that the number is real and because the rules currently state that any participant presenting without a bib must show their card (whether organisers manage to enforce it or not), and it would only do minor environmental harm if a temporary membership form was printed out anyway just in case the card is forgotten or something.
Absolutely agree re presenting cards. I'm not going to handle temporary membership forms in the system. This really is up to the organiser
Which reminds me of another idea - when a competitor completes online entry they should get a printable summary/receipt, I think this is a good place to include a notice that all div 4 competitors must report to control with either a NA membership card, or a youth section membership card if applicable, otherwise they will need to buy a temporary membership on the day.
The 'My Entries' section of the website provides a user with all the details of their entries and status. Receipts are only sent when we receive payment. This is taken 3 weeks before the race. Competition name is on the receipt but we're limited as to how much detail we can include
Postal entries would be separate, they always will be.
Yes and no. It has to be possible for postal entries to be added so that start lists can be generated and the organiser has all the entries in one place
The reason I thought of that, was that it might be easier for some events to set up a couple of laptops where on the day entries actually register and fill in an online entry
Would you really want paddlers in wet kit having access to your laptop! I'm not doing this either paddlers enter and pay on line or they don't. Adding the payontheday option is just another layer of complexity.
Those are some of my ideas, I have never successfully programmed a database and I know from other programming that what seems right when you plan it needs to be turned upside down to actually work in the program so I'm braced to be told it just can't work that way
Thanks for the ideas. Much of what you suggest is similar to the current operation. The difficulties are in the details!
Our rules as to who can enter what, how much it costs etc are ridiculously complex, which is of course why so many get postal entries wrong. It would be much, much easier if we could adopt a one race, one fee approach, but we have a system that charges different amounts for double events than singles and then adds a multi class discount (but only once for doubles). Then paddlers need to understand what is a double event - so many think that a paddle up entry on Saturday with a host entry on Sunday should count as a double; some think that C1 Saturday and K1 Sunday is a double, others think they should get MCD and it is really just two singles.
Complexities also abound around identification which is why non ranked paddlers are a headache. IDs really should not rely on NA numbers; apart from not being available for all, they can change!
In season promotion, paddle ups, vets, 'special' races (pan Celtics, selection, championships) all add another layer, along with the requirements for two different timing systems which have different needs.
The thing is for ranked paddlers entering via the system is currently easy and intuitive; paddlers don't need to be taught how to do it as it is reasonably obvious. A lot of my problems stem from needing to make the div 4s experience equally simple but still retain the integrity in the system and deal with all the underlying complexities in an almost invisible manner.
At the same time organisers want and need control over their competitions and all have slightly different needs and wants. Their screens have to be more complex and need to provide a lot of functionality but still need to retain a fair degree of apparent simplicity and intuitiveness. Achieving this is very hard and I'm well aware that I haven't quite managed it, although I hope we are not too far off. Every time we add something to the system there is a danger of upsetting the balance which really explains my reluctance. I'm just scared of getting it wrong