MASTERS LEAGUE - THE NATIONAL LEAGUE TABLE FOR THE 35+

Spiderman · Post by **Spiderman** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:57 pm

I never received the DOB's of all Masters in Divs 2 and 3 K1M so that was not a good start. However, I have all in Prem and Div 1 so those will be published at the end of the season. Nick P is kindly updating me with overall points tallies and I will, at some point, be compiling and publishing the results. I have not been doing this as the season progressed as it is not a formal class ...yet

I will be proposing the Masters League to be adopted for next year at the end of year AGM. If anyone wishes to propose the wording for such a motion, feel free to scribble it down here and we can toss it around to the satisfaction (hopefully) of all concerned.

PP

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 10:07 am

I feel another debate about over 40 or jus 40-45 coming on. . .

Spiderman · Post by **Spiderman** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:27 am

OK. As we are nearing the end of the 2009 season, I have now compiled the provisional Master Class League Standings up to, and including, the weekend of October 3rd and 4th 2009 for Premier Division, Division 1 and Division 2 Masters. These are provisional insofar as I "think" I have entered everyones points correctly. I plan to prepare final results after the October 24th/25th weekend.

I could not administer Division 3 because I never received the necessary dates of births of more than one or two people. You will note from the results I am publishing that I am STILL short of dates of birth from many people. If you wish to feature in the final results you MUST SEND ME YOUR DATE OF BIRTH. If I do not get this by the time I publish the final results on the last weekend of the season, you will not feature in the results. This applies to all those with "M?" next to their names in the results thus far.

I have prepared the results in two formats. Firstly, in five year age bands from 35 upwards. Secondly, and below those results, I have published all Masters results in one group per class of boat. The M reference next to each name allows people to see where they faired against either other Masters their age, older or younger.

Now that I have got this far, we need to try and agree on the best and fairest way for the League to be run. Essentially this is probably going to be in 5 year bands (as shown) or in 10 year bands (not shown). As the youngest Master will be 35, this will make the groups 35-39, 40-44, 45-49, 50-54, 55-59, 60-64, 65-69, 70-74 OR 35-44, 45-54, 55-64, 65-74 respectively. After this, we need to consider what should be done when an older Master has a final result that is higher than a Master in a younger age band. She they deprive the younger Master of a title?

The results can be found here:-

Provisional Current Masters League - Premier K1M and C1

Provisional Current Masters League - Div 1 K1M, C1 and K1W

Provisional Current Masters League - Div 2 K1M, C1 and K1W

I know that the running scores of the Masters League have not been made available this season and I apologise for this but they were never intended to be. During last years Slalom Committee ACM I agreed to continue developing the idea of a Masters League with a view to placing a suitable Motion before the Committee at this years ACM. So this season was more of a bench test - and I have to say it looks as good as we envisaged it to be! If it is adopted, we Masters can all look forward to a published running scoreboard (with the kind permission/assistance of NP of course) so we can see how we are fairing against those of our era!

Sorry this post is a little lengthy but I do hope that the Masters League gains the support that it properly deserves to make racing more fair and also more of a challenge to one and all. There is a huge number of over 35's racing these days (and lots more in the unpublished Division 3 who will surely be moving upwards!) so it really is a the right thing to do. Feel free to chip in with ideas so we can thrash things out here because the ACM will be next month and we need to formalise things a bit sharpish

I finally wish to say well done all Masters....particularly some of the more mature ones who seem to be showing a clean pair of heels to not only the younger Masters but some of the younger paddlers too! Loads of life in loads of old dogs yet! Bring it on!

PP

Dee · Post by **Dee** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 1:03 pm

This has possibly been a useful exercise, but looking at the numbers I'm not convinced of the value of splitting into 5 year bands. The number of paddlers who have competed in each band is just too small. In fact, it is not a huge group when gathered together, especially if you ignore those with zero points who, I presume have mostly not competed at all.

There is possibly a small justifcation for splitting into 2 groups, say 35 to 45 and 45 + , but judging by the number of individuals who have not sent in their dob, it is not something that most paddlers are bothered about!

Spiderman · Post by **Spiderman** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 2:54 pm

Hi Dee. The following is all IMHO of course

I think it is wrong to judge the proposal by the number of individuals who seemingly have not sent in their DOB details. I think the main problem with getting these is not that they have not been stated but that they have not been sent to me. Division 3 is virtually entirely absent as i never received the bulk information that I got regarding other divisions. It is impossible that this is because the information was not stated on the cards at the beginning of the season. Also, those who have gone up to Div 2 and 1 from the lower divisions have their DOB missing only because the information was never sent to me. I am already receiving DOB's since posting above so I doubt that "most paddlers (DV's only of course)" are not bothered about it at all. In the main, slalom paddlers are competitive and if there is some way of adding to the interest of competition and making it more fair for those competing, then it really should be favourably viewed to be added in, if at all possible.

Commenting upon the proposal is welcome, both good and bad, but forgive me if I, personally, consider your comments as those of a person whose sport is not directly affected by the proposal in terms of competition enjoyment. I would really like to hear comments from all the paddling DV's but few are here in this Forum. I wish to also say that I do not at all concur with your comment that "in fact" it is not a huge group when gathered together. DV's make up a large proportion of the competitors (we stated it in percentages per division previously somewhere here) and, furthermore, just because there are not so many involved in specific year bands currently does not mean that it will remain that way. If a DV, new or returning, can see there is a class for them to compete against others of their age, it will surely encourage rather than discourage more paddlers.

We should be endeavouring to make the sport more appealing to more people. Goodness knows it has taken a severe hammering over the last three decades with numbers falling so rather than comment on behalf of some paddlers that you think may not be bothered, and of course there are some, please also think about what it will do for the sport and for the DV paddlers that it will directly affect. I think that, if there is no adverse effect of a proposal that is seen to otherwise assist competitors and the sport in general, it should be welcomed.

It should not be forgotten that what is being proposed here is not something new, unreasonable nor unwelcome. These 5 year age bands exist in Europe and the proposal is to accord with these. I am not personally favouring 5 nor 10 year bands. All I have done is base the system on the 5 year banding to accord with Europe. If we adopt an age band system, then we should either adopt the European one or have good justification for adopting something different.

I personally do not see current numbers of paddlers being a governing factor. The M1 is too narrow these days. Had they made it bigger from the outset, we would not be suffering miles and miles of delays and related problems with road widening schemes now. It is the same short sightedness that we must avoid here. We should adopt a "Build it and they will come" attitude. As I said.....all IMHO of course:-)

PP

GreenPeter · Post by **GreenPeter** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:06 pm

I vote for 5 year age bands.
I think the age bands are even tighter in Triathalon, but can't quite remember (when I move up to the next age band I probally won't be able to remember what Triathalon is).
I agree with Spidey "I personally do not see current numbers of paddlers being a governing factor.".
Start off with the 5 yr bands to allow for growth (lets be positive about this). Also doesn't a five year banding take into account the fall off in ones physical performance with age?

Spiderman · Post by **Spiderman** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:45 am

Thanks for your comments. I will add my vote to the 5 year bands for the same reasons and all those given previously.

Might be a good idea to set out where I see the Masters League fitting in with the divisional system so this will maybe bring about more comments. I see the Masters League primarily as an end of season championship. It would be good to see Masters in each age band gain some form of recognition at events (rather than simply the fastest over 35 at the event) but essentially the points gained from the divisional system will add up to form a total score for each Master in their respective age band OR any lower age bands. I say this to follow on from my earlier comment about an older Master stealing the glory from a younger Master. I feel this is acceptable and fair. If an M45 beats all M35's and M40's, they properly deserve the title of all masters younger than them.

As an example, I refer to the interim points standings as uploaded yesterday (which have already been superseded by the results from Llandysul so they are now just an example) where we would have end of season Mens K1 British Masters Champions as follows. Steve Briggs M40 (meaning immediately that as no Masters younger than him finished higher in the ranking list, there would be no M35 Champion), Carl Rouch M45, Martyn Setchell M50, Dave Waine M55 and William Hanham M60. It is both fair and reasonable to have British Champions from, in this case, three divisions as each would be the highest ranked paddler in that age band. The Masters League will therefore provide an overall British Championship for all to strive to win in each age band and also it will provide a divisional challenge where paddlers are trying to become the top of their age band in their specific division. However, there would be no end of season award for the latter but, as I said, it would be good if their acheivements could be recognised at individual events.

I think it is great that, as the example I have just given clearly shows, a Div 2 Mens K1 competitor could become a British Champion! With some of the very fast senior paddlers soon becoming M35's, I doubt that an older Master will be taking away their Championships in the coming years. I see this League as an incentive to keep older paddlers paddling longer as they strive to become the best. Some may become the best they have ever been! Maturing like a fine wine some might say

PP

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:23 am

form a total score for each Master in their respective age band OR any lower age bands

Careful PP, you are in danger of agreeing with my comments from page 4 and top of 5!

Thanks for the work you have put in to this, all we need is a sponsor to buy some perpetual prizes, or just pints of energy drink.

jke · Post by **jke** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:52 pm

I must own up to not having sent my DoB. Having put it on all my entry cards I assumed it would be there automatically.

Spiderman wrote:Might be a good idea to set out where I see the Masters League fitting in with the divisional system so this will maybe bring about more comments.
PP

I can't say that I fully understand what you are saying here. There are two considerations, British Champion and Ranking List.

For the ranking list surely all that's needed is for DV to be to be replaced by M45, W45 etc. and we can all see where we are in the list. This would be a culmination of our performance in our age category (and our division) over the season.

For British Champion you need to have taken part in the British Championships. There may need to be a means here for hopefuls in each age category (and from any division?) to gain entry to the championships. Or entry is limited to P/1 as those divisions tend to run together on the same water?

Flyhigh3 · Post by **Flyhigh3** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:38 pm

jke wrote:For the ranking list surely all that's needed is for DV to be to be replaced by M45, W45 etc

Hmm, having just sent in my dob, I probably prefer having 'DV' rather than a more accurate figure in the Divisional ranking lists (among all those J14s and J16s!) - though I'd be quite happy having it amongst all the other 'masters' for some reason...or maybe I'm just being oversensitive...!

oldandslow · Post by **oldandslow** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:50 pm

Spiderman wrote:I refer to the interim points standings as uploaded yesterday

Where have they been uploaded Peter? I can't find them anywhere...

Munchkin · Post by **Munchkin** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:56 pm

Oldandslow, look further up this thread and you will see links in one of Spiderman's more recent posts.

oldandslow · Post by **oldandslow** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:02 am

Thanks! Old and slow says it all then! Not just in a boat!

oldandslow · Post by **oldandslow** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:04 am

Found it!

Don't forget the Prem/1 and div 2/3 Vets, Peter. I don't think they're there but it crashes on me if I look for too long!

Spiderman · Post by **Spiderman** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:56 am

Erm...all I have is there old'n'slow.

I started this proposal to give more people an incentive to race and to give those racing a chance to achieve recognition for their ability in consideration of their age. Accordingly, I think I would be prepared to supply a perpetual trophy if the proposal was adopted.

Jke, I was not thinking about separating the ranking lists from the British Championships regarding the Masters League. But it would seem possible to. My thinking was simply the best ranked paddler in each age band. I never considered a specifit championship event for a moment. I suppose it will boil down to who prefers what. I favour a league based on the ranking lists so the first consideration seems to accord with this. I suppose people could see the M status in the rankings and other than some who are concerned about others knowing their age (I personally have never understood this) the DV could be replaced by the appropriate M status. That would be sensible

PP