The Structure of Slalom

[John Sturgess]

Michelle

Simply incorrect in my experience - in my job I deal with all the sports done by Clubs in Gedling and all the sports done by children in Gedling, in particular with grants and awards.

None of the others I have dealt with - in particular recently swimming, short-track speed-skating, tennis, athletics, martial arts - have divisional structures - they all have 'single list' rankings - this does not seem to affect their ability to get support.

In terms of nominations for/winning Sports Awards what counts is how far from the top they are - and in their age-group, not overall. In terms of getting grants, speed of advance is probably more important.

In particular the sort of paddler most likely to get support, fast-climbing juniors make advances that sound much more impressive than going up one or two Divisions, which doesn't mean much to people outside the sport.

One junior Manchester paddler can write that already this season he has advanced from 450th to 220th in the country, and is now the 19th highest ranked Under-14 KIM in Great Britain. People understand that!

[boatmum]

Just as an observation

in particular recently swimming, short-track speed-skating, tennis, athletics, martial arts - have divisional structures - they all have 'single list' rankings

that's as maybe but the environment in which they compete does not change ie a tatami in judo is the same regardless of how old you are or weight or ability, a swimming pool does not change, neither does a track or an ice rink. In Slalom the venue can change significantly and I guess this is why in the UK we use divisional systems. Presumably in part so competitors know that the environment (course) is at the right level for their ability.

Also from DIRECT personal experience ...

In particular the sort of paddler most likely to get support, fast-climbing juniors make advances that sound much more impressive than going up one or two Divisions, which doesn't mean much to people outside the sport.

I totally disagree - folk outwith our sport understand divisions - usually because of their exposure to football and the like. Swimming and judo (sports I have direct and intimate experience in ☺) only start to attract 3rd party support once you're talking about European, Worlds, Commonwealth and Olympic participation precisely because there is no divisional system. There is almost no support in these sports for younger participants until they are competing at international level

[John Sturgess]

I really do not understand the bit about different divisions etc - but it seems to suggest that in terms of support anyone in Prem is 'better' than anyone in Div 1 regardless of their age.

My unit hands out £3000 per year in Sports Grants, in £500 and £250 chunks, plus free use of Council sports facilities. We would consider the best Under-14 or Under-12 in GB (both in Div 1). The 6th best Under-18 in GB would not even be sent to the panel.

I know that the Nottinghamshire Rising Stars awards operate on the same basis.

The same applies in selection for Gedling Sports Awards - and to the best of my knowledge in selection for Nottinghamshire Sports Awards.

[John Sturgess]

And ref swimming:

We have 2 13-year olds and a twelve-year old getting Gedling grants for the third year running (2 also get Rising Stars support) because they are nationally in the top 3 in their age group. The same applies to the two speed-skaters we support (one 15-year old, one twelve-year-old).

[PeterC]

Sorry folks but I feel the need to comment. I spent a lot of time last year pondering this and have to acknowledge the huge effort and consideration that John has given to this issue. I did finally come to a different conclusion from John while acknowledging the need to support and enable the rapidly rising star, out of this the concept of paddle up was born. It has been used by a few this year and some of these have shown they need to rise fast.

So why reject a single ranking list:
- the system is not broken and it is possible for good paddlers to rise fast
- there may be some overlap between the top of the lower and bottom of the higher division particularly in K1M but it is not terribly significant in my view in other classes.
- the biggest numerical hurdle is getting promotion from Div 1 to Prem in all classes. I think paddle up could help with this, although it may need some tweaking, I think the 40% is a little too high and paddle up success should be allowed to replace a win in the three win rule.
- paddlers will get less race wins at the lower levels and we should not discount the positive psychological effect of a race win.
- the effect on the availability of judges is an issue although I have no means of working out whether it would be significant or not.
- as paddlers get better we need them to travel further to compete on an increasing variety of courses and the divisional system encourages and supports this.
- while indeed there are sports without divisional systems there are other equally successful ones with one e.g. Football and closer to home canoe polo.
- while the artificial courses may lend themselves to a particular level others e.g. Tully run races at multiple levels e.g. Prem, 1, 2. The divisional system allows us to target races at particular levels and while we could run races with different numbers of points it would not have the same clarity in respect of target level.
- we already run multiple divisions down the same course which allows paddlers to compare themselves with the next rung up. We do not need a single ranking list for this.
- when generating the unofficial age rankings Nick has simply listed the paddlers in one class above the next down and while perhaps not perfect I have believed it to be very representative as youngsters rise through the ranks. I don't believe that a single ranking list would in reality be any more perfect and could well be worse if we use simple 1000,500, 250 points available for races.
- since we have a very clear pyramid with lots of paddlers at the bottom and decreasing numbers as the required skill level rises we actually need more points at the bottom than the top to facilitate differentiation. A single ranking list does exactly the opposite and we would loose differentiation at the bottom.
- as has been noted a judo mat is a judo mat and a swimming pool a swimming pool wherever it is, this is not the case with slalom courses and the divisional system means that by and large you will race against a very comparable group which negates course differences e.g. The points from a race on Shepperton can be compared with a race at Llandysul or Tully.

We should not confuse time based rolling rankings or the attraction of participants into the sport with the discussion over the divisions. The first is possible either way and since demotions only occur at the end of the season does not change what happens. I have yet to hear of someone who did not want to try salom because there was a divisional structure and the biggest fall off or loss of paddlers would appear to be when progression is such that travelling is required!

I am sure we coud make a single ranking system work although I cannot see we could get it completely right year one and I do not see the benefits really justify the effort and risk.

Lastly for the paddlers targeting elite status the selection races are more important than the divisional system but they still need to pit themselves against groups of paddlers with similar abilities on the way there.

[John Sturgess]

There seems to be a view that it is either open entry races or a divisional system

Not so: the Czechs, the Slovaks, the French all have divisional systems and open entry races. The Czechs have open entry races throughout the year; the French re-sort their Divisions by rankings towards the end of the season, so that paddlers qualify for the N1 Championships or the N2 Championships or the N3 Championships.

So we do not have to choose between them.

[BaldockBabe]

[quote="John Sturgess"]There seems to be a view that it is either open entry races or a divisional system
quote]

That will be because that is what the paper is proposing. If that is now that is intended it should be re-worked.

It seems to me that the "issues" that this paper is trying to "resolve" could be dealt with by encouraging more clubs to include an open event at their races... The only "advantage" this system seems to have is being able to enter more events (though I still contend this can be dealt with by an official's entry) which having more open races will assit with.

[John Sturgess]

The paper proposes a single ranking list. It does say anything about not having Divisions

As I explain above. the French, Czechs, and Slovaks all have single ranking lists. They also have Divisions.

If anyone wants to see how this works, e-mail me on ECSTCoach@jsturgess.freeserve.co.uk and I will send examples of French, Czech and Slovak results, with explanatory notes for those who do not undrstand French, Czech, or Slovak.

[PeterC]

I have run open races alongside others and some choose to do these rather than judge. Achieving adequate numbers of judges is always a bit of a challenge which can be made worse with an open race. Unfortunately John as already noted the proposal is to do away with the divisional structure. On a positive note we are at least thinking about the issues.

[Simon W]

Apologies for butting in on this, especially for my first post! As someone who has recently started dabbling in slalom practice I have a relevant perspective about issues of getting people into the sport. The issues I personally faced were as follows:

1) I couldn't easily find a slalom club anywhere near me. At least not by looking at various club sites. In the end I accidentally stumbled upon Cheltenham club practicing at Nafford Weir, and later I found some guys from Evesham practicing at the same place. I found them purely by accident and was lucky that they allowed me to join in using my plastic bathtub!

2) Not enough venues with permanent gates to practice on. There are places like Symonds Yat that have a history of slalom, but nothing there now. years ago there used to be flatwater gates on the Teme near Worcester. Not any more. I'm sure there are quite a few places up and down the country that used to have gates when slalom was popular that don't have them any more.

3) The antiquated way of entering a competition. I have yet to enter one. I was going to enter at Stone this morning, but found out at the last minute I needed to be a BCU member. But aside from that I don't want to be dealing with cheques or turning up on the day and hoping that there is room for me. It isn't difficult to set up a Paypal payment system and I'm sure most people would be prepared to pay the extra pence to account for the surcharge. With regard to the BCU membership, I know that it is mentioned on the Canoe Slalom website that it should be possible to get temporary membership on the day, but once again there is no information forthcoming about how much this actually is.

4) Entering costs. It is difficult to find out how much a competition costs to enter! As a newcomer I don't know all of this information. Much of the information given on slalom websites seems to assume prior knowledge. Eventually I found it buried on the Canoe Slalom site, but it wasn't exactly prominant, and it would be nice if slalom organisers would include that information. Regulars will already know the costs. First timers don't.

5) As Baldockbabe said, it isn't easy to give slalom a go. It requires jumping through hoops and trawling through loads of websites to find out what is needed, and if there isn't a local club that does it, which let's face it, this is the majority of clubs, then that person is scuppered.

Now, aside from my own issues, these are the what I come across from other paddlers:

1) Rightly or wrongly slalomists are often seen as elitist and cliquey by general paddlers. There is a bit of a "them and us" mentality going on. This makes some kayakers wary of being involved.

2) Slalom is viewed as being too serious. Most people want fun out of their paddling. The whole serious competition vibe, or perception of it does actually put people off.

3) A lot of recreational paddlers do not see the relevance of slalom to river running, and likewise some slalom people don't run rivers either, so lose view of what slalom was developed for in the first place. This contributes to the "them and us" mentality. Personally I think slalom would be excellent to improve peoples paddling skills all round. As such I think it would be good to get clubs to introduce slalom in an informal capacity at clubs to get paddlers using good technique, having fun, and being able to turn a basic outflow of a weir for example into something more complicated and interested. By taking the informal approach rather than making people dive in and start having to think about entering competitions, training, rankings etc they would learn about slalom in a more enjoyable way while improving their paddling at the same time.

Those that like the competitive aspect can then go on to enter competitions if they like. But my point is that by bringing in slalom as a fun training device to general canoe clubs people become more familiar with slalom, get better at their own paddling, and some of them would have their interest piqued and perhaps go on to enter competitions. Ramming the competition aspect down paddlers throats isn't the way to go. It needs to be nurtured at a grass roots level as part and parcel of kayaking in general, not as a separate aspect with separate clubs.

4) The gear is too expensive. And they would be right. Yes, in earlier divisions plastic boats can be used. However eventually a decent slalom boat of 3.5m design will be needed, and that isn't cheap even on the used market. Not to mention all the additional cags, decks, different type of paddle etc in order to stay competitive.

5) Travel:Paddling ratio. The idea of travelling half way across the country only to get a couple of paddles in can be off putting. This will be doubly so should this whole thing I have been reading here about division 4 being relegated to the end of the day comes about. I wouldn't want to travel all the way to Matlock for example for a simple run through a short course during which period most of the other competitors are packing up to go home!

Reading through these forums, and talking to various people it does appear to a lay person that the emphasis of slalom is on the serious competition side rather than the experience for the competitors and making sure that there is a steady stream of interest in the sport.

At one time slalom was seen as being part and parcel of learning to run rivers. This connection appears to have been lost, and so there is a disconnect between those who like doing slalom and the average kayak club member who often these days doesn't want anything to do with it.

Apologies if I come across out of turn!

[jjayes]

Simon,

you said

Apologies if I come across out of turn!

I do not think you are speaking out of turn at all, you are speaking from exactly the view point the slalom community needs to hear.

Finding a club can be a major problem in certain parts of the country. It sound like you got lucky, but a good google search can provide your closest options.

Putting up slalom gates to practice does not take long once you know what you are doing, its a bit of a lost art now days with many places providing permanent gates. For training all you need is bailer twine and a few bits of straight wood, you really do not need many to do a decent session. Its really not that hard even if you have to put them up for each session.

You are certainly right about entering competitions, posting letters with cheques, we are probably the last supporter of the post office in this respect, that need to change for sure.

I think you are right that there is a bit of a "them and us" mentality going on and all existing slalom paddlers need to be welcoming and informative to any other paddlers who may be looking on if they want the sport to grow. It looks like our Olympic Gold medallist are really doing a good job to promote the sport. Anybody who knows Tim and Etienne would not describe them as being elitist even though they are the best. They are a great example for the sport.

You say "Slalom is viewed as being too serious. Most people want fun out of their paddling. The whole serious competition vibe, or perception of it does actually put people off."

I think it can be both fun and very competitive, its up to the individual to choose that balance for themselves. Some people will be attracted by the competitive side others by purely the fun element and the sport needs to recognise this.

I could not agree more with what you said here.

"I think slalom would be excellent to improve peoples paddling skills all round."

The great thing about gates is that it can make easy water hard and that only leads to developing more skills that can be transferred to all types of paddle sport.

The gear is too expensive is a real issue, like most things the free market dictates the price, both for new and used boats and equipment. But there are still bargain to be had. Think about buying a old 4 meter boat and shortening it, its not that hard to do and they still paddle very well. Check ebay and the dark recesses of any canoe club to find one for very little or even free. Very few boats are ever completely destroyed or thrown away, most are still around.

Travel:Paddling ratio. I have always heard this, but think about it this way. By having a short time to race and that being the highlight of the weekend, does it not make that short time on the water more special? The 100 meters at the Olympics is a case in point, it is the most watched and anticipated event of them all. Training gates along side a race course could add value to the weekend for some people if they want more time on the water and organisers could hep with providing these and maybe some coaching.

[drascombeman]

Hi,
My daughter and I are newbies to the world of slalom, this is our first full year of competition.

We are both members of Winchester canoe club, so, no moving water, very little organised training and no permanent slalom gates. My daughter has got into the top 10 in Div 3.

Some feedback from our first year;

Everyone has been really friendly and helpful,
The division system has worked well and the 3/4 events have been a really good introduction to the sport, without putting my daughter off.
The points system is complicated at first, but once explained it seems a fair system.
Lack of suitable venues for training and competitions has been an issue, with shepperton being our closest suitable venue, I think the commitment to driving a long way to train and compete does put people off, especially newcomers.

My attitude is, keep things easy and simple to use and understand, and people will get involved.

Many thanks to all the people who run UK canoe slalom, you all do a grand job.

[Simon W]

My attitude is, keep things easy and simple to use and understand, and people will get involved.

This, I think, is the most important concept for any organiser or person involved in the committees needs to obtain a thorough grip of. The easier, the simpler, and the more transparent the process of starting in, competing in, and continuing in slalom is, the more people will become involved. It absolutely must be easy to access, and in grass roots canoe/kayak clubs I think that this has been lost because most are not interested. Contrast this with the 70's and 80's where most good white water paddlers were almost always involved or had been involved in slalom to some degree.

Personally I think the key to this is making sure that white water paddlers of all levels are made aware that slalom improves river running skills to a huge degree.

I think you are right that there is a bit of a "them and us" mentality going on and all existing slalom paddlers need to be welcoming and informative to any other paddlers who may be looking on if they want the sport to grow. It looks like our Olympic Gold medallist are really doing a good job to promote the sport. Anybody who knows Tim and Etienne would not describe them as being elitist even though they are the best. They are a great example for the sport.

Yes, this has been my experience so far too. The guys from Evesham and Cheltenham are totally encouraging. Though I think that much more needs to be made between the connection of slalom and real river running. I.e that slalom is testing your river running skill level in a competition setting, rather than as many paddlers see it "dancing around poles" with no relevance to their own paddling/skill set.

A resurgence of Paddles Up might be a good thing too! Incidentally, someone has put the entire series on YouTube, featuring your good self on there!