The last couple of times it was run as a Prem/Div 1 event we managed to get control in a small room in the hotel. A caravan is also a viable option, we used to set one up near the finish. The only issue that I can recall is that some of the less agile section judges didn't take to scrambling along the rather rough footpath on the far bank, I think one said it was dangerous!
Although it is inevitably dependent upon water levels, as are all natural rivers, it will go at lower and higher levels you could live with at Town Falls. Safety is much less of an issue at Serpents Tail, and this is talking as someone who has swam there more than most - the first time I paddled there was as a judge when I was still in division 4. I don't think I finished a run.
It is a lot of effort to set up, but it is feasible, and certainly no harder than Town Falls.
The reason we stopped running it was because it became unviable as a division 2 race (the last race, which was eventually cancelled due to high water, I think we had taken about 30 entries), and the slalom committee would not move one of the Town races up there.
I can't commit anything yet, I need to speak to the club committee, and get support from enough members to be able to erect the course and run the event (most of them don't know what a commitment running an event at Llangollen is, nearly all the members that go back that far aren't so active these days), and I will need the support of the slalom committee too.
British Open - The Future - hhmmmmm?????
Dave ,
I would be willing to help. I know the owners of the Chain Bridge hotel quite well and can talk to them about it. Stephanie who owns it is also the chair person of the Llangollen chamber of trade. If it can be put on the calender, let me have a date and I will talk to them and the fishermen if you want me to. I also think the fishermen would be supportive if it was not in their season.
It is a great site for racing and unfortunately has been a bit forgotten. It also works in lower and higher water levels than the Town site.
Jim.
I would be willing to help. I know the owners of the Chain Bridge hotel quite well and can talk to them about it. Stephanie who owns it is also the chair person of the Llangollen chamber of trade. If it can be put on the calender, let me have a date and I will talk to them and the fishermen if you want me to. I also think the fishermen would be supportive if it was not in their season.
It is a great site for racing and unfortunately has been a bit forgotten. It also works in lower and higher water levels than the Town site.
Jim.
Does this site not suffer from the very same issues as the Town site, but creates two additional issues with the lack of catering and toilets? Is there also adequate parking for 100+ vehicles (including vans/motorhomes)?
Would we not be better sitting down with the Chamber of Trade and spelling out what would make an excellent race venue on the Town falls and seeing how much they would be prepared to assist?
They would probably not like the proposals we would come up with, as it would almost certainly require work on the riverbed and also the creation of an island in the centre of the river to mount temporary posts for lines and also help channel water through the course in low water conditions.
I was trying to think of another natural river site used for International races and the nearest one I could come up with was Solkan, Slovenia. It is just outside the centre of the town but it does incorporate a central island to make the organisation and quality of the slalom racing better on what otherwise would be a very wide river.
Jim, you obviously have the contacts - would this be a total non-starter or do you think they would be prepared to shift a little in order to persuade us to continue racing on the Town falls? Do you believe they would be prepared to spend good money to develop the site rather than expecting us to do it for them?
The 'beauty' of the concrete ditches is that everything is laid on for you and the owners of the courses actually want you to race there due to the prestige of hosting the event, especially as we approach 2012 and they start to put together hopitality packages for the visiting slalom nations.
Mark
Would we not be better sitting down with the Chamber of Trade and spelling out what would make an excellent race venue on the Town falls and seeing how much they would be prepared to assist?
They would probably not like the proposals we would come up with, as it would almost certainly require work on the riverbed and also the creation of an island in the centre of the river to mount temporary posts for lines and also help channel water through the course in low water conditions.
I was trying to think of another natural river site used for International races and the nearest one I could come up with was Solkan, Slovenia. It is just outside the centre of the town but it does incorporate a central island to make the organisation and quality of the slalom racing better on what otherwise would be a very wide river.
Jim, you obviously have the contacts - would this be a total non-starter or do you think they would be prepared to shift a little in order to persuade us to continue racing on the Town falls? Do you believe they would be prepared to spend good money to develop the site rather than expecting us to do it for them?
The 'beauty' of the concrete ditches is that everything is laid on for you and the owners of the courses actually want you to race there due to the prestige of hosting the event, especially as we approach 2012 and they start to put together hopitality packages for the visiting slalom nations.
Mark
The above is the personal opinion of Mark Shaw and does not reflect the views of either the BCU or England Slalom Committees.
"would this be a total non-starter or do you think they would be prepared to shift a little in order to persuade us to continue racing on the Town falls? Do you believe they would be prepared to spend good money to develop the site rather than expecting us to do it for them?'
I think if we do not ask, we will not get. I think just pulling out the Town slaloms after so many years (42 year?) and not giving the town a opportunity to do anything about it was very short sighted. I do not think many people in Llangollen know about the perceived problems.
There are many sources of funds available in Wales as the multi million £ spent in Cardiff and the Tryweryn show, as well as the tourist board ect. It really does depend if there is the will in the sport to do it.
I have been pleased by what the EA have allowed us to do to the river at the Mill, so I can not see why we could not do anything on the town falls.
Talking about the Serpents Tail site, there is a large hotel on site with catering, bars and accom, and there are also 2 large car parks.
Great events have been run on the site in the past.
If all we want is the easy option to run events there is no doubt that going down the route of only using the artificial courses is the way to go. I do not blame the volunteer organizers for taking this option as it is a lot of work. It is up to any organizer and club as to what they are willing to take on.
I think if we do not ask, we will not get. I think just pulling out the Town slaloms after so many years (42 year?) and not giving the town a opportunity to do anything about it was very short sighted. I do not think many people in Llangollen know about the perceived problems.
There are many sources of funds available in Wales as the multi million £ spent in Cardiff and the Tryweryn show, as well as the tourist board ect. It really does depend if there is the will in the sport to do it.
I have been pleased by what the EA have allowed us to do to the river at the Mill, so I can not see why we could not do anything on the town falls.
Talking about the Serpents Tail site, there is a large hotel on site with catering, bars and accom, and there are also 2 large car parks.
Great events have been run on the site in the past.
If all we want is the easy option to run events there is no doubt that going down the route of only using the artificial courses is the way to go. I do not blame the volunteer organizers for taking this option as it is a lot of work. It is up to any organizer and club as to what they are willing to take on.
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Canadian Paddler
- Posts: 1480
- Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 8:31 am
- Location: Peterborough
- Contact:
The Calendar will be finalised at the ACM. It does not sound as though we have time to sort out the issues at the Town for next year, but it sounds as though there is support for continued discussion for next year. IF there are volunteers enough to do this, we cannot rely on the good will of the committee, they have 'proper jobs' to do as well as the volunteer committee work.
Tail slaloms can be run at higher and lower water than town (as noted above), there is a hotel on site, provided they are willing to co-operate. Last time I was there, there were TWO car parks. If we do not want so many concrete ditches, we need to come up with a credible alternative in teh next two weeks, then convince teh ACM that late submission is acceptable and within the remit of the managed calendar.
As this is being requested outside the committee, we cannot just ask 'them' to run it, but it seems as though there MAY be a club or two who can help out.
Tail slaloms can be run at higher and lower water than town (as noted above), there is a hotel on site, provided they are willing to co-operate. Last time I was there, there were TWO car parks. If we do not want so many concrete ditches, we need to come up with a credible alternative in teh next two weeks, then convince teh ACM that late submission is acceptable and within the remit of the managed calendar.
As this is being requested outside the committee, we cannot just ask 'them' to run it, but it seems as though there MAY be a club or two who can help out.
All spelling errors are intentional and are there to show new and improved ways of spelling old words. Grammatical errors are due to too many English classes/teachers.
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points
the 'concrete ditches' provide almost certain water to race on when you look at the sites in europe they are all a section of natural river that has been manipulated in some way is this artifical or not ??? lookin at a higher level then paddlers have to be 'stopper proficient' which seems to be provided only by artifical courses that aside i would agree we need to retain natural river events it has to be a balance does anyone know how the calender is devised and who makes the descisions i know that clubs apply but what happens if more than one club applies to run the same ranking event on the same weekend have paddlers ever been consulted about what they want ???
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Canadian Paddler
- Posts: 1480
- Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 8:31 am
- Location: Peterborough
- Contact:
Under the managed calendar, slaloms of the same division must be a minimum travelling distance apart. If two slaloms close together both apply, then the event requested firts has first call, although there may be some debate.
Paddlers are not consulted about what they want, it being difficult enough to get organiusers to agree
Other systems have been considered, (like setting out when events are wanted and asking clubs to bid for them), but not accepted at ACMs, not the least because some events cannot move easily, like HPP - provisionally booked already, or Tulley (needs long weekends to get the numbers in prem/1), and because clubs have ALWAYS run their event on that weekend.
Paddlers are not consulted about what they want, it being difficult enough to get organiusers to agree
Other systems have been considered, (like setting out when events are wanted and asking clubs to bid for them), but not accepted at ACMs, not the least because some events cannot move easily, like HPP - provisionally booked already, or Tulley (needs long weekends to get the numbers in prem/1), and because clubs have ALWAYS run their event on that weekend.
All spelling errors are intentional and are there to show new and improved ways of spelling old words. Grammatical errors are due to too many English classes/teachers.
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points
The town clerk and chair of chamber of commerce have been notified as to why we are cancelling for next year AND have been told if something could be done firstly about safety issues, a)the slab b)the overhanging shrubs/trees and secondly the water levels (we had a negoitated a release should the levels be low but was not forthcoming when needed) we would reconsider for future years.
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Fat old man
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:39 pm
- Location: Evesham
Feeling quite strongly about the subject of racing on the town falls, I have taken a little time to try and look at this from all perspectives. At first it would seem there are two arguments here, but actually there are three points of view to consider. They also fall neatly into the following categories from a well know Christmas tale……
The ghost of slalom past
Please excuse me for a moment, this is purely my own point of view, I am now a ‘fat old man‘ - back in the day, I have helped put up courses on the town falls (since the event was sponsored by Fosters in the early 80’s), I have raced at the open (on and off) for the last 23 years. High or low, I love it – slalom canoeing should be a test of how good you are at canoeing down a real river, the changes in river level and the associated natural hazards are all part of the challenge.
This is the British Open and International, it should be very difficult, if you are not confident of safely negotiating the course or are worried about scratching your boat, then don’t race. It’s a proper site, with challenges that are different each time you race it and a great atmosphere and public arena for running a race – this should be a higher priority than the quality of car parking or availability of showers. I am not the best paddler, but at recent levels when this event has been canceled, I could paddle down the falls all day without getting pinned or wrecking my boat.
If we seek to run the same artificial moves at the same water level week in week out with minimal risk, then finally we shall hold the British open by riding logs on the log flume at Alton Towers. Very PC, absolutely no risk, but completely missing the point.
Maybe I am just stuck in my old ways and reluctant to change? Actually, no. I think all the other changes in the sport to date have been very beneficial - from removing reverse gates to short courses, single poles and especially short boats, how I wish we had them 20 years ago!
Some of this may sound a bit harsh, it is only my own point of view, and in the overall scheme of things what I think or want is not so important anymore.
The ghost of slalom present
This, however, is far more important. I very much want to see our athletes’ succeed at world level, World class events are typically run on controlled or fully artificial courses to guarantee good water for the events to run, it is absolutely correct that we train and prepare to be competitive in a similar environment. Years ago I helped raise funds to have Holme Pierrepont built, time and money well spent, especially as this has become the style of racing in current times.
The argument here is strong and compelling; the current trend is for this style of competition, to be competitive we must race and train in this manner. This would seem to be the logical winner in the argument for or against racing on the Town falls and real rivers, but it seems there is a third point of view….
The ghost of slalom future
The 'ghost' of slalom future? Herein lies the rub, by addressing our own individual needs and the current environment required to succeed at world level, few people seem to be looking beyond the here and now.
Please bear with me again for this bit-
The most obvious trend in slalom canoeing over the last 25 years is the massive drop in the numbers participating; this delivers fewer people to the top of the sport, it is true that twenty five years ago the classes in the UK were dominated by individuals (Fox, Sharman, Hedges) but this was backed up by a much greater depth of world class athletes below them. As we approach 2012 we appear to be putting fewer eggs in our basket (there is also the subject of funding, which I know is another issue), I worry that the sport will continue to dwindle away if we continue the way we are (I heard numbers are up this year, good news - but only a blip over the last two decades of decline). There is no point being at the top of the heap if there are only a few people in the heap….I think we all can agree on this point - we do not want numbers to reach wild water racing levels in a few years time.
So, recently I started a new local canoe club with the intention of combining general paddling and slalom racing, much as in ‘the good old days’. Having a bigger base of paddlers, more might take up slalom and those that don’t still have an appreciation of the benefits of slalom. After three years of this uphill struggle it seems an impossible task, the main reason is that now recreational paddlers no longer see Slalom as proper canoeing/kayaking, they see it as an artificial sport that bears no relation to paddling down a river due in part to the concrete ditch situation and the perception that slalom boats are not river boats as they are damaged to easily. In fairness it has to be said that a lot of slalom paddlers now seem to believe the opposite for exactly the same reasons. If slalomists paddled rivers without wrecking boats, maybe this attitude would change – but instead we are moving away from rivers and canceling river events for exactly such reasons.
There is another argument here – Just make slalom clubs for slalom paddling (for example like Stafford and Stone). This is how my new local club has now become – we just do slalom and have a few keen juniors following the old fossils into the sport.
But, most importantly, it is only a few compared to the much greater lost potential of only a few years ago. To run a successful slalom only club, time is needed to develop the local community to accept this as a sport in it’s own right and be recognised as such – this takes time and a high profile at world level to generate a high enough reputation. Stafford and Stone canoe club today is unique, coming from the center of excellence in the 70’s and building on this through the exceptional efforts and dedication of a few people (Royle, Neave, et al), it now feeds a very high proportion of athletes into the British Teams. They also took 1st and 2nd places at the interclubs.
However, this environment is rare and difficult to promote from scratch - If we took away Stafford and Stone and maybe a couple of other top clubs out of the equation, all of a sudden our sport would face a much bleaker future. Very few eggs in very few baskets?
Conclusion?
In order to succeed in today's sport we do need to train on and develop artificial courses, at the same time if we lose our roots (slalom was originally a test of how well you could paddle down a river) then we further reduce our profile within mainstream canoeing and hence our potential for recruitment into the sport. As much as we need to continue with the artificial courses, it is at our peril to become completely divorced from mainstream paddlesport and to a degree vice versa – if more slalomists were better at running rivers, then we wouldn’t have so many issues in getting down the town falls in one piece. It's the same sport! Many juniors now achieve a high level in slalom whilst having no other canoeing experience under their belts.
If we lose all the real river races, then I shall probably leave the sport. It is of no consequence whether I paddle or not. It would, however, be the end of our local club and the new juniors who are keen to race slalom. Fewer eggs in fewer baskets…
I believe it is in the long term interest of our sport to race on real rivers as well as artificial courses, I want the sport to still be here when my children will hopefully pick up the ‘baton’ from me in years to come.
I would be so pleased for the future of the sport to see the the British Open return to the Town Falls as soon as possible.
The ghost of slalom past
Please excuse me for a moment, this is purely my own point of view, I am now a ‘fat old man‘ - back in the day, I have helped put up courses on the town falls (since the event was sponsored by Fosters in the early 80’s), I have raced at the open (on and off) for the last 23 years. High or low, I love it – slalom canoeing should be a test of how good you are at canoeing down a real river, the changes in river level and the associated natural hazards are all part of the challenge.
This is the British Open and International, it should be very difficult, if you are not confident of safely negotiating the course or are worried about scratching your boat, then don’t race. It’s a proper site, with challenges that are different each time you race it and a great atmosphere and public arena for running a race – this should be a higher priority than the quality of car parking or availability of showers. I am not the best paddler, but at recent levels when this event has been canceled, I could paddle down the falls all day without getting pinned or wrecking my boat.
If we seek to run the same artificial moves at the same water level week in week out with minimal risk, then finally we shall hold the British open by riding logs on the log flume at Alton Towers. Very PC, absolutely no risk, but completely missing the point.
Maybe I am just stuck in my old ways and reluctant to change? Actually, no. I think all the other changes in the sport to date have been very beneficial - from removing reverse gates to short courses, single poles and especially short boats, how I wish we had them 20 years ago!
Some of this may sound a bit harsh, it is only my own point of view, and in the overall scheme of things what I think or want is not so important anymore.
The ghost of slalom present
This, however, is far more important. I very much want to see our athletes’ succeed at world level, World class events are typically run on controlled or fully artificial courses to guarantee good water for the events to run, it is absolutely correct that we train and prepare to be competitive in a similar environment. Years ago I helped raise funds to have Holme Pierrepont built, time and money well spent, especially as this has become the style of racing in current times.
The argument here is strong and compelling; the current trend is for this style of competition, to be competitive we must race and train in this manner. This would seem to be the logical winner in the argument for or against racing on the Town falls and real rivers, but it seems there is a third point of view….
The ghost of slalom future
The 'ghost' of slalom future? Herein lies the rub, by addressing our own individual needs and the current environment required to succeed at world level, few people seem to be looking beyond the here and now.
Please bear with me again for this bit-
The most obvious trend in slalom canoeing over the last 25 years is the massive drop in the numbers participating; this delivers fewer people to the top of the sport, it is true that twenty five years ago the classes in the UK were dominated by individuals (Fox, Sharman, Hedges) but this was backed up by a much greater depth of world class athletes below them. As we approach 2012 we appear to be putting fewer eggs in our basket (there is also the subject of funding, which I know is another issue), I worry that the sport will continue to dwindle away if we continue the way we are (I heard numbers are up this year, good news - but only a blip over the last two decades of decline). There is no point being at the top of the heap if there are only a few people in the heap….I think we all can agree on this point - we do not want numbers to reach wild water racing levels in a few years time.
So, recently I started a new local canoe club with the intention of combining general paddling and slalom racing, much as in ‘the good old days’. Having a bigger base of paddlers, more might take up slalom and those that don’t still have an appreciation of the benefits of slalom. After three years of this uphill struggle it seems an impossible task, the main reason is that now recreational paddlers no longer see Slalom as proper canoeing/kayaking, they see it as an artificial sport that bears no relation to paddling down a river due in part to the concrete ditch situation and the perception that slalom boats are not river boats as they are damaged to easily. In fairness it has to be said that a lot of slalom paddlers now seem to believe the opposite for exactly the same reasons. If slalomists paddled rivers without wrecking boats, maybe this attitude would change – but instead we are moving away from rivers and canceling river events for exactly such reasons.
There is another argument here – Just make slalom clubs for slalom paddling (for example like Stafford and Stone). This is how my new local club has now become – we just do slalom and have a few keen juniors following the old fossils into the sport.
But, most importantly, it is only a few compared to the much greater lost potential of only a few years ago. To run a successful slalom only club, time is needed to develop the local community to accept this as a sport in it’s own right and be recognised as such – this takes time and a high profile at world level to generate a high enough reputation. Stafford and Stone canoe club today is unique, coming from the center of excellence in the 70’s and building on this through the exceptional efforts and dedication of a few people (Royle, Neave, et al), it now feeds a very high proportion of athletes into the British Teams. They also took 1st and 2nd places at the interclubs.
However, this environment is rare and difficult to promote from scratch - If we took away Stafford and Stone and maybe a couple of other top clubs out of the equation, all of a sudden our sport would face a much bleaker future. Very few eggs in very few baskets?
Conclusion?
In order to succeed in today's sport we do need to train on and develop artificial courses, at the same time if we lose our roots (slalom was originally a test of how well you could paddle down a river) then we further reduce our profile within mainstream canoeing and hence our potential for recruitment into the sport. As much as we need to continue with the artificial courses, it is at our peril to become completely divorced from mainstream paddlesport and to a degree vice versa – if more slalomists were better at running rivers, then we wouldn’t have so many issues in getting down the town falls in one piece. It's the same sport! Many juniors now achieve a high level in slalom whilst having no other canoeing experience under their belts.
If we lose all the real river races, then I shall probably leave the sport. It is of no consequence whether I paddle or not. It would, however, be the end of our local club and the new juniors who are keen to race slalom. Fewer eggs in fewer baskets…
I believe it is in the long term interest of our sport to race on real rivers as well as artificial courses, I want the sport to still be here when my children will hopefully pick up the ‘baton’ from me in years to come.
I would be so pleased for the future of the sport to see the the British Open return to the Town Falls as soon as possible.
i fully support the use of natural rivers but the fact is that town falls did not offer a difficult enough course for the british open even at mid to high levels there is little scope for movement of gates over the falls but the river levels have been unpredictable in recent years resulting in very predictable courses in order to attract foreign paddlers to the event we need to be able to provide almost guaranteed water which hpp can do and i feel that the right desicion has been made
that aside i am thrilled to have the serpents tail introduced onto the prem/div 1 calender
i also disagree with fat old mans theory that many junior paddlers race at a high level without river expereince
many of the northern clubs matlock manchester and greenstar come to mind have put juniors in plastic boats and run rivers long before they have chosen to stick their bums in a slalom boat it is these paddlers who tend to have followed either paddlepower or star programmes which make them efficient and competant at rescue techniques too :;):
that aside i am thrilled to have the serpents tail introduced onto the prem/div 1 calender
i also disagree with fat old mans theory that many junior paddlers race at a high level without river expereince
many of the northern clubs matlock manchester and greenstar come to mind have put juniors in plastic boats and run rivers long before they have chosen to stick their bums in a slalom boat it is these paddlers who tend to have followed either paddlepower or star programmes which make them efficient and competant at rescue techniques too :;):