British Open - The Future - hhmmmmm?????

andy n · Post by **andy n** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 11:02 am

There is some reference in the post above about "the slab", that has not been mentioned elsewhere. As a long term slalom and recreational coach I feel that, at low river levels, the hole that is now opening up to river right of the slab is becoming extremely dangerous and if this is not remedied, we should consider very carefully whether we put inexperienced Division 1 paddlers on this course.
The rescue team looked very experienced and dealt with the small number of rescues that arose at the British Open. Fortunately I don't think anyone dropped into the hole mentioned above on the Saturday and the higher river level on the Sunday made the slab section safer.

jjayes · Post by **jjayes** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 7:24 pm

There is a issue with the route to the right of the slab and there always has been, but this can be sorted out relatively easily for all canoeists. I have experience of doing river works on the Dee and know we would need environment agency approval, but as it is a safety issue I can see no reason that they would object as long as it was done in a aesthetically sensitive way. I have always found them to be most cooperative. it would need the filling of the hole to the right of the slab, done well this would also put more water over the slab. At the same time it may be possible to enhance other parts of the course.
There would be a costs for this work but I can not see it costing too much.(1-2K) If there is the will and need to get it done, I would be willing coordinate such a project if required. JJ

Geebs · Post by **Geebs** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 1:22 am

jjayes wrote:There would be a costs for this work but I can not see it costing too much.(1-2K) If there is the will and need to get it done, I would be willing coordinate such a project if required. JJ

And who is going to pick up the bill?

For the sake of one/two or no events (water level dependant) at Llangollen would it be money well spent?

I am interested as why/how that you can publish copies of emails that were not addressed to you on this forum? Surely they are of personal nature and confidential?

I am sure that you have the best interest of the sport and yours (as a sponsor and local trader) and other local traders interest at heart, but the argument is getting a little thin.

There seems to be too many "ifs" to make it feasible for a viable, reliable event IMHO.

Graeme

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:37 pm

According to the recent committee minutes there will be no event at Llangollen next year anyway, shame IMHO, but I do not have the time or money to sort out the slab and/or run the event.

Kazz · Post by **Kazz** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:04 pm

when will us lesser mortals get to see a copy of the calender i have spoken to several paddlers who are supported by a programme who all seem to have a good idea whats on where so why dont i

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:24 pm

I have not seen the Calendar either, I just know when my club events are on, and have seen committee minutes that say that there will be no Llangollen next year.

Previously I have been part of trying to get DRAFT calendars published before the ACM, but there was so much critisim, and complaint, too the wrong people, that this stopped being possible. So draft calendar will be published at the ACM, shoudl be accepted there, and then published for all to see.

Long way of saying end of the month.

jjayes · Post by **jjayes** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:20 pm

Geebes

All the email I have published were copied to me and I know all those concerned were happy to have their views aired in public. I do not see that any of them are of a personal nature at all.

I really do have the best interest of the sport in mind with all of this debate, the fact that I also commercial interest only adds to my passion for the sport. I certainly do not think my argument is getting a little thin. It is all a lot bigger issue than just Llangollen, it is about the future direction of the sport as a whole and it should be discussed.

I do not think any of this is or should be a secret, it is a very important open debate and I think quite healthy for the sport.

As for covering the cost, I think 2k would be easy to come by and would represent a good investment for Llangollen town. If £14Million can be found for Cardiff, I am sure 2k can also be found for Llangollen.

As it says in the October committee minutes "the fact that this is
probably the only event that has a high profile to the general public"
I would think would be a very strong argument for the event to return at some point.

It will become a very sad sport if all the skill and risks are eliminated from running a natural rapid. The issue of the slab and the trees has always been there.

I have recently been consulted by Wii who are working a canoe slalom game and am not quite sure how I feel about it. If can be used to get more people into the real sport that would be great, but I think it could have the reverse effect. I also understand that the latest artificial courses designer are not only working on better plastic rocks but also ones that are softer to hit and well as less abrasive concrete so it does not scratch the skin.

I really do wonder if this is all progress. I can see a case for two branches of the slalom sport in the future, one on artificial, plastic and concrete courses and the other on natural rivers. Slalom is a very artificial sport in many ways already. I think there really is a place for both.

31st October Committee Meeting. Llangollen
Anne Hounslow reported that their had been some positive comments after the weekend. She thanked
World Class for all their hard work with the course erecting / dismantling and all the other volunteers
that are needed to run this event.
A long discussion over the future of the event ensued - the main problems at the present time are :-
 Safety- the erosion of the slab on the falls is causing great concern especially so if the water is
low. Also the overhanging shrubs and trees would have been a serious hazard had the river been
high.
 The facilities for Timing and Control.
Although the Town Council and traders of Llangollen do not wish us to leave and the fact that this is
probably the only event that has a high profile to the general public it was felt that we could not run the
event there next year. The problems will have to be addressed before we can return.

boatmum · Post by **boatmum** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:46 pm

[I also understand that the latest artificial courses designer are not only working on better plastic rocks but also ones that are softer to hit and well as less abrasive concrete so it does not scratch the skin.]

It's interesting because around 1999 there was a rash of deaths in cross country eventing (horse riding) most of which were in England - these were mainly down to the static jumps - not wanting to get too technical, but if a horse's quarters brushes a static jump (ie one that doesn't move unlike poles) they tend to somersault over the top of the jump crushing the rider underneath which is the most usual cause of serious injury or death in these events.

However in the UK a top plank mounted on pins was developed to help minimise this risk. This simple precaution was only taken up on a few courses - why? a) expense (what price a human life?) but also b) because of the outcry that it was hampering skills development in competitors!

In 2008 around 12 riders died in global cross country events that's one a month (this is at top level competition) 3 in the USA and I think 3 in the UK - so half in countries that cannot be accused of not being able to fund safety unlike some others - an many more sustained serious injury.

So I believe we have to be very careful when we pooh pooh safety initiatives. I don't believe anyone has died in the UK competing in canoe slalom but unless you truley believe that features such as softer artificial rocks or less abrasive concrete are to the detriment of the skill, where is the harm in making artificial courses less painful!

I have always felt that paddlers sustain more injury on the artificial courses than they do on natural rivers. But I am sure someone will disagree.

davebrads · Post by **davebrads** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:28 am

I really am unhappy about a natural race being replaced by a race on an artificial course.

However there is another solution - how about a return to the Serpent's Tail? It has always been a far better race site than the Town.

oldschool · Post by **oldschool** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:31 pm

i'm up for that dave! but don't let the saftey nuts see it when its big, they would have kittens! anyone fancy an up on the chain bridge stopper in flood?:D i do!

boatmum · Post by **boatmum** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:46 pm

Ahem - I think you've missed the point - big IS GREAT!! the bigger the better - but where's the harm in lessening the pain - if it doesn't lessen the skill - where there is that option?

But maybe I'm just missing the whole macho - if it don't hurt it ain't worth doing bit??

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:51 pm

Big is great, unless it is proper levels, and you are trying to judge river left. . . . gets a bit damp when the water is well over the rocks!! I would be up for it! Might be able to sneal it inot the claendar before approval on Saturday week, IF anyone can:
- get land owner approval
- believe we can get round fisherfolk
- get organisers commited.

Or at least we can try to get it in a sprovisional with HPP as a backup. Anyone got time to do the groundwork? sorry but I do not have ???

Nicky · Post by **Nicky** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:53 pm

no town falls? Three races on HPP (Or am I wrong? but 2 is too many!). If no one will volunteer to run serpents tail, the tigers can run another one at Abbey. We can't have that many concrete ditch races!

Nicky

Munchkin · Post by **Munchkin** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:54 pm

I have just been down Serpents Tail and it is a fab venue. It would be great to have a race there.

Anne · Post by **Anne** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:57 am

If my memory serves me well it used to be run by Manchester & if I recall correctly it was a bugger of a site to run an event as no facilities at all. To run a race there means shipping in loos, generators, tents, don't think you can get a caravan near enough (in October) for timing team. It was also very dependent on water levels and the course was not easy to erect hence they stopped doing it!

But hey Manchester how about thinking about ressurecting it next year! Not one I feel the Committee would want to run as most of us not agile enough!!