Women - Canadian

Geebs · Post by **Geebs** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:47 pm

Munchkin wrote:I suspect that the timing is all due to school holidays... They could have selection later but that would leave very little in the calendar to be selected for!

To be honest I think the camps are great and should not be limited to C1W. I gather the camp earlier in the year at Sowerby went down well and I am sure having more at HPP for c1, c2 and k1 would go down very well too. Though I should state that the camps should be open to adults and kids!

C1W camps are for C1W, there are normally plenty of other camps for the K1's and the Men! please do not try and dilute this opportunity of some high calibre coaching ???

I do suspect that there will be no funding for anyone selected to represent GB this year in the C1W class so it may well be time to start saving for the chance to go to any of the international events!

Munchkin · Post by **Munchkin** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:04 am

I must have phrased that badly. Each camp should be for the class concerned for that camp I was arguing that there should be more camps in total. If there are some for k1 and men out there then clearly they are not advertised very well (other than Sowerby) or are only open to juniors otherwise I would have signed up for them and would have encouraged our club members too!

AndrewG · Post by **AndrewG** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:33 pm

Munchkin wrote:If there are some for k1 and men out there then clearly they are not advertised very well (other than Sowerby) or are only open to juniors otherwise I would have signed up for them and would have encouraged our club members too!

At the risk of hi-jacking this thread...........

What are these camps, who are they open to and how are they advertised?

Clearly from my questions above Michelle is not alone in her lack of information relating to these camps.

Can anyone enlighten us?

jim croft · Post by **jim croft** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 2:37 pm

All the information you need and an application form is on the web site www.canoeslalom.co.uk
Jim

Mark Shaw · Post by **Mark Shaw** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:02 pm

This thread is specifically about women in canadians. The 'camps' in August for this class have been advertised on the front page of the UK Slalom web site as Jim has already pointed out, which you must have been on to link to this forum.

More specifically, they are being organised by World Class to encourage female paddlers, who are already comfortable with competing on HPP in a kayak, to consider switching to canadian ahead of the Senior Worlds next year where the C1W class might actually be finally recognised by the ICF as a valid class.

This is separate to any other 'camps' that have been and might be organised in the future by any other groups, e.g. Canoe England Slalom Committee, local canoe clubs, etc. The emphasis for these camps will always tend to be focused on juniors as opposed to the over 18s, but this shouldn't stop paddlers getting together within regions and organising sessions on local rivers/slalom courses as they have done in the past. Just check with the local club/access officer in advance to see if there are any restrictions or specific evenings reserved for slalom (see separate post on the forum).

If anyone would like to start a separate thread about the number of paddlers who don't feel as though they belong to a club any more, the lack of available coaching at club level, the impact this is having on slalom clubs and their development, strategies to help retain people in the sport and encourage them to take up slalom coaching, etc. - then please fell free to post.

But not in this thread - Thanks.

Munchkin · Post by **Munchkin** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:08 pm

Firstly no one was saying that they did not know where the C1W camps were being advertised (I think Jim and Mark must have misread an earlier post) they were querying where these other camps that Geebs suggested took place were being advertised. In fact, I believe I had already mentioned that I was signed up to the C1W camp so must have known it was advertised!

Secondly, it concerns me that Mark has said that the C1W camp was for people already happy on HPP, that is not what it suggests in the advertising bumpf which talks about "all ages and abilities". I have lots of girls of "all ages and abilities" from my club now signed up to the C1W camp. Some have never even been to HPP. Is this camp meant for them or not? If the advertising is misleading it must be corrected to let people know or Mark, can you confirm that your post is not correct?

Thirdly, although I started this thread about C1W I think the other posts are valid. Most C1W are likely to be recruited through the K1W event since most clubs will introduce new competitors to K1 first. Because of that any development in the K1W for people not on the Development Squad will benefit C1W in the long run.

chauffeur · Post by **chauffeur** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:14 pm

Munchkin wrote:Because of that any development in the K1W for people not on the Development Squad will benefit C1W in the long run.

I think you will find none of the girls doing C1W are current development squad. Alice and Fiona are the only ones who have been on development before and they are currently not in the top three selected for K1 so no development funding from World Class.

If the days run similar to last year some will saty on the flat and some will go down the course - it is personal confidence.

Munchkin · Post by **Munchkin** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:42 pm

chauffeur wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Because of that any development in the K1W for people NOT on the Development Squad will benefit C1W in the long run.

I think you will find none of the girls doing C1W are current development squad. Alice and Fiona are the only ones who have been on development before and they are currently not in the top three selected for K1 so no development funding from World Class.

That is my point exactly. For C1W to develop, investment must be made beyond the Development Squad.

Mark Shaw · Post by **Mark Shaw** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:23 pm

Sorry but I stand by my original post.

All info about camps for all classes is posted on the UK Slalom web site - there isn't anywhere else to post such info so why would it be posted elsewhere. There have been a couple of camps advertised/run so far this year that I am aware of, and there has been a summer camp advertised in France as well.

World Class is in the business of winning medals at international level. It has some interest in the development of classes but realistically it expects others to do this job for it. Regional slalom coaches are being established but again these will probably focus on juniors pre 15 years old as a feed in to World Class.

Are you serious about sending total novices to HPP down the white water in a C1? Obviously not, so they will probably spend most of the camp on the flat water mastering C1 technique. Probably not the best use of a World Class coach and something that could have been provided at club level just as easily if you had a coach to deliver it.

So, if we want to develop classes such as C1W and support paddlers 18 and over then I think we need to establish stronger slalom clubs with like minded individuals supporting each other. These individuals need to be encouraged to do coaching courses heavily subsidised by membership payments from the club they belong to. In return, they will spend x number of hours on the riverbank paying back the cost of the training they have received, and hopefully everyone benefits.

Canoe England can help support this from membership fees, etc., but ultimately we are on our own and have to sort this out for ourselves. Strong clubs is definitely the way to go rather than expecting people to put on one off training camps. You only have to look at the success of Stafford & Stone CC to work that one out!!!

Geebs · Post by **Geebs** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:14 pm

I agree with Mark, it is down to the individuals and the clubs to do the basic work at club level before moving onto more advanced programs. I was at a meeting last week up in the North East with the PDO for the area and they are developing women's C1 within the clubs there.

As to throwing novice paddlers down HPP well I think that would be a little stupid, I have witnessed plenty of K1 paddlers pull out after seeing the course for the first time (or swim) and to do it with one blade if you are not used to big water would be utterly stupid!

Not sure that recruiting paddlers from K1 is the right way to go, the other way round would be better C1>K1 as the skill level of paddling a canadian is a lot higher than a K1!

Mr Munchkin · Post by **Mr Munchkin** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:22 pm

Not sure anybody has suggested sending novices down the whitewater course at HPP?! Neither Munchkin (above) or World Class's 'advert' suggested this; the latter states that the course structure will be firmed up when they have assessed the applications received. I would agree this kamikaze approach if that were proposed would be more likely to put people off than attract them to the discipline. It would be akin to me getting in any boat at the top of HPP!

At last year's women's C1 courses, I understand paddlers were divided in to groups of different abilities, from the novices who trained on the flat water to the more experienced who went down the whitewater course. By the end of the camps everyone had tried going down at least part of the course and had gained huge amounts of confidence.

Surely that approach is more acceptable, definitely seems more inclusive for long-term development than the exclusion of the majority of people who would like to 'taste' C1.

Reading the description of the taster days:

"Whether Tacen Worlds 2010 tickles your taste buds or just a good way of enhancing your skills for the benefit of other classes/disciplines, then Women’s C1 is here for you and so are our taster days! ... It is our vision that budding female canoeists of all ages and abilities attend and have fun in a positive learning environment."

This wording sounds more like Mark's "some interest in the development of classes" than in the pure "business of winning medals at international level".

Surely this is a good thing for the sport...both of these objectives are mutually inclusive and one leads (hopefully) to the other... It is good to see the sport's elite are not solely interested in short-term medal collection but also in the long-term development of enthusiastic paddlers of all ages and abilities.

Personally, I would rather not need to go back to our 5 club members (of which 3 are J14, the other 2 being mothers of younger paddlers) who were interested in attending and tell them the course is not for them...they don't tick the World Class boxes???

Geebs · Post by **Geebs** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:33 am

Mr Munchkin wrote:At last year's women's C1 courses, I understand paddlers were divided in to groups of different abilities, from the novices who trained on the flat water to the more experienced who went down the whitewater course. By the end of the camps everyone had tried going down at least part of the course and had gained huge amounts of confidence.

You are quite right as paddlers were divided into groups of different abilities, which would be the only fair way to provide the appropriate coaching.

The competent paddlers went just about straight on to the WW course after a short flat water session, I think there was three if memory serves me correctly, some others progressed to simple moves on the course by the end of the second day whilst others remained on the flat for some more technique training, so not everyone went on the WW course as the coaches deemed it as 'not advisable for some'. The ones that progressed onto the WW course did gain some valuable experience and confidence.

As to your five club paddlers, well I am sure they will receive the best guidance from the coaches as to what is safe for them to attempt.

I am sure that there will be some WC paddlers on the water and safety cover on the bank as last time to look after all the paddlers.

Anne · Post by **Anne** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:39 am

Yes World Class are about winning medals but they are also about developement and the success of this can be clearly seen in the C2 class (this has been a develpment class for a couple of years) where we had a number of boats fighting for the places in the GB teams the first time in many years GB had 3 crews and were therefore able to compete in the team race at the Euros and win a silver team medal. The same goes for the juniors, 3 crews going to the Euros.

Worls Class are very aware of the probable introduction of C1W, and are continually seeking clarification from the ICF as to their plans (not always clear!)

As with all classses a certain amount of development and coaching has to beging at club level as World Class 's funds are not bottomless, but they are keen to help wherever they can and the C1W training camp is just one example.

With the imminent interviews and hopefully appointment of a new National Development coach (competition but with the main focus being slalom) the coaching structure will now be able to be put in place across England. The England sub committee will also be in a position to work with this person and ensure there is the accessability to prospective coaches to work towards their UKCC qualifications and thus incease the coaching availability. Also England will be able to offer some coaching coyrses. But again we habve to remenber their funding is VERY limited as is the Slalom Committee's.

Slow Paddler · Post by **Slow Paddler** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:19 pm

I've been trying to push this camp within our club, we're started a C1 womens developmental program ourselves with help for an Awards for all grant which purchased the boats & equipment. We're lucky to have good c1 & c2 coaches at the club, but these are volunteers who are already heavily relied on.

I now don't know where we stand regarding the camps, none want to go down hpp in a C1, but would love to get some extra coaching on the lake, we only started in April and have only trained at Marple so don't feel good enough to go down the course. Also we had a brand new C1 damaged there last year, so won't have our brand new boats going down.

Most of our women are DVs ones a senior and some are juniors, having emailed Craig and reading Marks comments I don't think our adults would be overly welcome, which also stops the juniors as it tends to be their mothers paddling.

Is it worth me trying to push it to all the group or is it as it now appears just for juniors who are already doing K1 down Nottingham?

Mark Shaw · Post by **Mark Shaw** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:42 pm

I wish I hadn't posted now!!

I am not trying to put people off attending the C1W camps - quite the opposite in fact. As other's have already posted, everyone will be assessed for their ability in a C1 on moving water and groups will then be formed so that no one is presurised in to doing anything they don't feel they are capable of.

All I was trying to do was emphasise the need for clubs to be the main driving force behind the development of slalom in England, including C1W. One off camps are great but they have their limitations.

Camps might have kit you can borrow but it isn't guaranteed. The assumption will be that clubs will provide kit for their paddlers if they don't have their own - boats can always be mended!! Clubs can obtain grants to replace kit - camps can't. Clubs can sustain paddlers between camps and at important divisional races - camps can't.

That's all - nothing more - no hidden agenda.