Electronic vs. Postal Entries

PaulR · Post by **PaulR** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 12:39 pm

Right heres the disclaimer:

I understand and appreciate all the work that the volunteers of our sport do, and by no means is this a criticism of them, or to any one individual. So I would appreciate that people will reserve their comments along the lines of; "if you think you can do a better job...etc etc"

This is merely an idea in its youth; please don't shoot it down in flames.

Intro:

The whole process of posting off an entry for races is starting to seem a little tedious and frankly a little out dated. I say this for a number of reasons;

1) I usually receive a start list back in the post after I’ve already viewed it online.

2) The efficiency of our once great postal service is becoming a pain.

3) In these great modern times people have the capacity to do bank transfers online, and use such things as 'paypal' to purchase items, or pay for services.

4) Environmental issues surrounding the excessive and inappropriate use of paper are clearly highlighted in the media

Idea:

So I propose giving the paddler a choice when wishing to enter any event: of either using the traditional method or by sending the entry in an email and paying the organiser through digital banking (as they would have set up and be a registered paypal user)

I am informed that paypal is not a difficult thing to set up.

A start list would then be posted on the slalom Uk website for people to either look at or print off if they wish.

This choice would eventually be reduced to just the electronic option.

The Positives of this...

a) An entry can in theory be done instantly, with very little cost.
b) Hopefully it would reduce the amount of work each organiser has to do.
c) With most people working with internet capable computers entries can be sent at any time during the day, so would reduce the concerns of when the last post is in any given day.
d) Our sport can advertise the fact of attempting to reduce their environment influence (which reminds me of a another tread about not printing off a particular individuals results in fear of wasting paper!)

e) Late entries can be sorted out instantly also: paypal can alter the price of the entry at a certain time in the day automatically to make it a late entry fee: thus reducing the workload on the race day.

The difficulties...

d.a) I am of course assuming here that most people have either a computer or the internet to be able to send emails to the organiser. (although the way around this would be to either ask a family member, club mate to send one or visit their local coffee/internet shop or library)

d.b) Setting up paypal may not be appealing to some organisers in fear of fraudulent activities on their details (which is understandable- but the system is used by most of those people whom have ever bought anything off e-bay, and is completely secured with insurance to protect those at ‘risk’)

d.c) Perhaps a new deadline for entries would have to constructed to allow for this being a more instant form?

d.d) Some organisers may not be (understandably) fully technically minded and would prefer to work with paper.

d.e) Entry cards! How would these be filled out, perhaps an online version of them can be made (or an excel doc.) that the paddler can fill in and attach to an email. As assuming that the organiser will fill each one in would be defeating the whole point! Although there is still the problem of a signature.....

Anyway just an idea...

Paul Ramsdale

Dadstaxi · Post by **Dadstaxi** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 6:39 am

Paul

Fully agree with your idea of the use of electronic entries.

Last year the Nene 2/3/4 utilised an electronic entry system - even printing out the Entry Cards - no idea what software etc they used. So it is out there somewhere already.

Perhaps someone involved in last years Nene event would like to add to the thread on the advantages / disadvantages they encountered. I for one would prefer to enter on line - much less hassle.

cheers

c1champ · Post by **c1champ** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 2:27 pm

I think this is a very good idea but there are a few problems we would have to get round.

i.e Sending cards off to the BCU.
Displaying results if computer are not available
Computers can fail. Shut down, Break. You could lose everything!!

This could work but thing would have to change in our sport before this can happen.

Good idea Paul.

John · Post by **John** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:43 pm

This idea has been around for a while, see this thread and example entry system.
Does anyone know if any progress has been made?

Munchkin · Post by **Munchkin** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:19 am

I like the idea if it is not too much of a problem for the organisers.

The Nene system works well from the competitors end.

oldandslow · Post by **oldandslow** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:04 pm

Speaking as an organiser, it would make life a whole lot easier, but it has to be fully thought through...
Last year I took email entries but got in a right muddle! I filled cards out and then people brought completed cards; I had cards and no money; I had cards and no signatures - and then when I was called away from control, the system most definately crashed because it was all in my head who had to do what!
As C1champ so rightly identified it's communicating the data with BCU which is the main hurdle... the signed and completed cards all need to go there separate ways!
Nice idea for the 22nd century!

Dadstaxi · Post by **Dadstaxi** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 7:46 pm

Still don't understand why the NCKC system can't be introduced as when I entered my daughter and myself there last year I don't remember having to sign any cards on my arrival and the cards were already pre-printed for us.

So it can and does work.

If rules / guidelines are laid down on the use of electronic entries we wouldn't get the issue of people presenting cards duplicating the entries. Part of the agreement in using on-line entry could be that an 'E-Mail' address is added to the cards. This nowadays is seen as an 'official' signature I believe even in courts / tribunals etc.

Come on lets not be negative and use the tools that clubs have/are developing to make our sport more attractive, afterall how long will it be before many banks are doing away with cheques as many high street retailers refuse to accept them anymore!!.

Just my twopenneth.

DT

Dee · Post by **Dee** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:03 pm

As someone who does the entries for two competitors I love the idea of internet entry, but.....

With regard to email entries (as suggested in the original post)......
This year around half of the entries received for Shepperton div 1/2 were via email. This created a nightmare as far as I was concerned.
- The vast majority of entrants will give their age group but not their dob and past experience has told me that for the first event in the season a surprising number of individuals don't realise that they are a year older.
- most forget their club
- most don't mention whether they are M or W (and, no, it is not always obvious)
- email entry = no signature on card/recognition of std risk clause
- cheques sent later are not necessarily easy to link to competitor (especially for juniors whose mum has divorced/remarried/retained maiden name etc so that surnames don't match)
- some people put in an entry, don't pay and then don't turn up
- I just haven't got time to sort out card writing/printing for 50 odd competitors.
- I end up having to keep a list of all the missing bits of information (which means that, unlike oldandslow, I am far from indispensible, but pay a price in time up front)
- Finally, and by no means least - I just haven't got time to cope with the dramatically increased email traffic.

The upshot is that I will not be taking any email entries next year. If we can get a proper system working that interfaces to slasoft, ensures that the correct info is supplied etc then I would be happy to use it, but not email as suggested in the original post.

Having said that - I think that the rule requiring a start list envelope should be made voluntary (mental note - get club to propose change). Most people are more than happy to use the web and it's easier for the organiser. Less wasteful on paper too as people only print what they need.

djberriman · Post by **djberriman** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:56 am

Hi,

As per previous threads I'd suggest email is not the best medium, as posts here say not all the details are captured, its then easy to lose details and entries are not acknowledged and may never have been received for various reasons.

What we need to do in my humble opinion (without getting stuck in endless red tape) is to develop a simple online system which has every event listed in it.

Like many other systems I have developed the key is to keep it simple and enhance the functionality each year as people get used to it rather than go for an all singing all dancing system with all its inherent problems (and endless meetings).

A simple website would allow the visitor to register for a race (with the option to remember details for next time). Entries could then be sent to the organiser as they arrive and could be viewed by the organiser of the event at any time, even downloaded and imported into slasoft or whatever software is being used if this is possible (producing the data is not an issue - electronic import might be).

Using a website means all data could be captured and you would have no missing details. Data loss risks are minimised by simple regular backups.

The payment issue is a problem as paypal would cost the organisers and they struggle to cover costs as it is.

debit card payments might be possible as they are typically charged at 50p per transaction. This could be added to the entry fee for the convenience.

As mentioned cheques and bank transfers can cause issues too but at least the charges are minimal in comparison to card payments. Each electronic entry could be given a unique reference which could be written on a cheque or quoted on a bank transfer.

Online entrants would have to agree to pay regardless of whether they turn up or not. Anyone abusing the facility could I guess be prevented from using it.

It used to be possible to pay the charges yourself with some online systems but I've not see one recently.

Signature should not be an issue, a simple tick box should suffice with a place to enter your name/parents name in the case of youngsters. At the end of the day the scribble on a card is no proof the adult actually gave permission.

We've also talked about better designed cards, if this was looked at then printing cards from internet entries should not be an issue.

We seem to have discussed this quite a bit and never moved on, why can't we start something, those events that wish to use the system can and those that don't can choose not to - at least for a few years. Maybe eventually it will become the norm.

I guess the complication comes with C2 entries, multiple entries (more than one class), judge entries, family entries, club entries etc etc but none of them should be impossible to solve.

As we learn more from experience we can enhance any online system to do things like remembering paddler details etc.

The key is to get agreement and get started!

Would be good to hear of current best practice and learn from those clubs that have tried it.

Duncan

PaulBolton · Post by **PaulBolton** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:14 pm

I've entered a few fun runs, like the Lincoln 10K, and everything is done electronically via an on-line form. Perhaps we should look at how other sports have solved some of the problems discussed. The Lincoln 10 asks for clubs and applies discounts for affiliates as well as taking forecast finish time to give start numbers relative to speed. I guess running events get economies of scale but maybe there's something out there already that can be "leveraged". Also, with an on-line form, it wouldn't be accepted until all the fields were completed ,so it would possibly solve most of Dee's problems.

Cheers,

PB

Anne · Post by **Anne** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:24 pm

This was all looked into very thoroughly sometime ago however the stumbling block was the cost of setting up the payment. The thoughts then were for the BCU to set it up payment options for all disciplines but the costs were prohibitive. Having online entry and then seperate payment wouldn't work - too much of a headache for the organiser.

Perhaps the time hs come to look at it again, I will bring it up at the next meeting.

djberriman · Post by **djberriman** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:53 am

Just had a quick look and moneybookers.com would appear to be an option. Very low fees for the sender of the payment and a small one off fee when drawing the money down £1.50 (after the event has finished).

From what I can see this would mean it would ony cost the club a handling fee of £1.50 per event to accept online payments.

Uploading funds for the competitor is free and there is then a charge of 1% (max 40p) to send the money.

djberriman · Post by **djberriman** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:56 am

upload is free by bank transfer, maestro or cheque. There is a charge to upload from credit cards of 1.9%. Not sure about debit cards but i would think same as maestro. Still bank transfer is free so should not be an issue.

katonas · Post by **katonas** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:19 pm

Anyone know what the rules are regarding refunds for entry fees in the event of illness, injury, work commitments etc ?

If you send an entry card 3 weeks in advance, but pay on the day, does a late fee apply, and would you still be in the race if the event was closed to late entries ?

If there are no rules, perhaps there should be to ensure fairness for all.

I'm a bit confused by the MoneyBookers fees page. Bank transfers might make it difficult for organisers to see who has paid, although easy for competitors if you have online or telephone banking. Still, I wonder how often organisers have to chase bounced cheques ?

Dee · Post by **Dee** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:39 am

See rule book 11.1 to 11.4 inclusive.

Strictly speaking an entry is not valid unless you send a correctly completed card together with correct payment and either an sae or an email address.

An organiser could reject any entry as invalid if it doesn't include all of these and then charge for late entry when you turn up. If the organiser accepts your entry without payment then you are liable for the fee whether or not you turn up.

Most organisers will be more generous than the rules allow. If you enter on time but without payment most probably wouldn't charge late entry, though they may well chase for payment if you didn't turn up, particularly if you haven't told them. Similarly, if you send a cheque and then contact the organiser a few days ahead to say you can't make it, many will just tear up the cheque especially if it's for a good reason. If you leave it until the day of the race then you are more likely to end up paying regardless.

The rules are clear and quite strict, but organisers know what it's like and tend to be a bit more forgiving!