Paddling Up

[Jaytee]

I've been asked questions about the 'Paddling Up' trial; and looked at p58 in the handbook.

My interpretation for a paddler in Div 3 (for example) is:
If the race is Div 2 (or Div 1/2). They may enter (& pay the higher fee). They'll be excluded from ranking points. Provided the relevant div 2 class is quorate, if their result is better than 40% of the ranked Div 2 paddlers, it would count as 1 of 3 they would need to claim promotion. I would expect those paddling up to form separate categories on start lists; and that they should wear their Div 3 bib.
If the race is Div 2/3. They would enter the Div 3 race. They'll be included in the Div 3 ranking points. Provided the relevant div 2 class is quorate, if their result is better than 40% of the ranked Div 2 paddlers, it would count as 1 of 3 they would need to claim promotion.

Anyone fancy confirming/offering a different view?
Thanks

[lesf]

My reading of it would suggest that paddling up paddlers could be included in the division, and simply marked as non-ranking and excluded from points calculations

les

[jim croft]

I think Les is spot on - the propblem will come if Organisers don't read page 58 in the 2012 Yearbook.
Jim

[oldschool]

This sounds like more headaches for organisers and ranking compilers combined!

No wonder we cant find anyone else in the club prepared to deal with the paperwork of organising events.

who votes these things in? surely if your good enough you get promoted, simple. this seems to be another way for kids to get promoted too fast on to water they are either too scarred to paddle or not physically ready for.

Or am I just (turning into) a grumpy old man?

[jim croft]

If you or your club were at the last ACM you could have voted for or against.:-

6.7 Paddle Up
The Committee having received some correspondence on the matter proposed an amendment to the
wording to reduce ambiguity. The amendment removed “, either in the published calendar or at the time
of planning the start list or at the time of planning the start list” from the motion.
This amendment was proposed by Proteus Canoe Club and seconded by HPP Canoe Club. It
was was accepted nem con. The motion was therefore amended.
B3.3 Accelerated Promotion
For the 2012 season, the concept of ‘paddling up’ will be trialled; this will be reviewed at the end of the
season.
B3.3.1. “Paddle Up”
A competitor ranked in any given division may enter races designed for the next division up
(referred to below as the Host division). This is intended to enable paddlers to get
experience of more challenging racing conditions and to allow them to compare their
abilities against higher-division paddlers. Provided that the class is quorate, a competitor
“paddling up” achieving a result better than that achieved by 40% of the ranked paddlers
competing in that class at three events in the same season may claim promotion into the
higher division.
In the case of a multi-division event (e.g. Div1/2 or Div 2/3) a paddler ranked in the lower
division who achieves a result better than that achieved by 40% of the ranked paddlers
competing in the same class in the higher division may claim the result as one of their three
"paddle up" promotion results.
B3.3.2. “Paddle Up” Participation Conditions
The entry fee payable will be the same as for competitors in the Host division.
Points will be calculated for the Host division as though the “paddling up” competitors were
not present. They will not receive ranking points and will be listed “NR” on the results
sheets.
The event organiser may impose a limit on numbers, either in the published calendar or at
the time of planning the start list. If such a limit is applied, priority of entry shall be as
follows:
a) Up to the event deadline: Host division paddlers, in order of receipt of entries,
then “paddlers up”, in order of receipt of entries.
b) After the event deadline up to entry cut-off: both Host division and “paddling
up” paddlers in order of receipt of entries.
This revised motion received 48 votes in favour, 10 votes against with 3 abstentions. The motion
was therefore adopted.
JIm

[Dee]

I'm not against Paddling Up; indeed I think it is basically a good idea. But in organising an event I have a few reservations.......

- not everyone makes it clear that they are paddling up and given that I also have a few re-ranked paddlers (who don't yet know their bib numbers) and paddlers competing to apply for re-ranking (not always clear who's who) it is making life a bit more complicated than I'd like.

- several paddle-uppers entering div 2 have sent in div 3 fees; we need a note on the year book entry fees page to remind them to pay the div 2 fees. I will ask Nick to add this to the web site at least.

- if Sheppy div 1 goes ahead then entries are full on Saturday (plug mode on......judges runs still available......plug mode off) and several of these are paddle uppers, which means some true div 1/2s don't get to race. Not sure this is fair?

- some of the div 3 paddle-uppers would have entered as judges, so I am potentially losing yet more of my miniscule pool of judges.


PS I really hate the multi-class discount just because it is a pain to administer.

[Jaytee]

Thanks for comments. Early stages yet, but a couple of helpful pointers.
I was thinking separate categories for those paddling up as duplicate bib numbers are a real possibility.
I can see how pre-race admin. becomes more complex!
There were a small number of paddlers up at Tryweryn; they were allocated to separate classes for admin reasons. Will be interesting to see how this works out as the season unfolds.
Jaytee

[Jaytee]

So far, the arrangement seems to be working (I think).
I appreciate its extra work for organisers, especially if entries aren't clear!

Am I right in believing that individual paddlers need to keep aware of whether they achieve 3 scores sufficient to claim promotion, and then request promotion from the relevant ranking compiler?
Or is a separate list being held of "paddle-up points" (which I doubt!)

Grateful for any views, thanks.

[Neil H]

Hi

I'm posting this on behalf of a friend and have not read the rest of the thread so apologies if it has already been covered. It is a straight cut and paste of his questions

-----------------------------------------

Help - Paddle up Confused!


“Their "result" is better than 40% of the ranked paddlers” – Is that the same as saying placed within the top 60% of ranked paddlers ?


"Result" - is that placing? or time? i.e. on a difficult course 40% of paddlers could rack up lots of 50's so their times could be way off the top 60%


Practical examples –



Shepperton Div 2 – Saturday


43 paddlers


3 NR as paddling up so 40 ranked paddlers


Paddle up paddlers came 16th, 23rd and 42nd


So can the first two claim 1 out of the 3 required paddle up results?


Shepperton Div 2 – Sunday


38 paddlers


2 NR as paddling up so 36 ranked paddlers


Paddle up paddlers came 21st, 33rd


So can the first can claim 1 out of the 3 required paddle up results?

[Jaytee]

My understanding of the 2 situations described is "yes" in both cases.

[Dee]

Update on administering an event with paddle-uppers.

Already stated per-race admin a headache. So now the event itself....

Bibs - most of the div 3s turned up without bibs (yes I know they are supposed to have them but....); to be fair same was true of an unacceptable proportion of div 2s.

Div 2s aren't used to late fees. Div 3s don't really understand what they are. Most div 3s are probably mainly used to div 3/4 events which are very different in character to div 1/2 One of the things that the divisional system does provide is an apprentiship to competition and entry rules and process. I think perhaps we underestimate the importance of this when it comes to running a smooth event. not saying this should be insurmountable, but it does need to be considered.

Bib numbers - we inevitably had duplicates, eg 2 * 24, and because the ladies class was quite small these were paddling close together. Paddlers turning up slightly late could make the gap between the duplicate bibs even worse. This can make transmission checks harder to manage and generally meant a physical treck to judging positions to make sure we got the right person.

If the trial is to be continued then I believe that we must issue bibs that are unique within a whole class. Eg div1 bibs start at 101, div 2 at 401 and div 3 at 701. Obviously costs associated with this but, as an organiser, I would be against any permanent paddle up proposal that did not involve this change as I think that the risks of penalties going to the wrong paddler are too high.

[Slapdash Sal]

I don't think it's insurmountable either - the duplication of bibs - Judges need to be very fastidious at recording the categories they are judging: This is usually in one block but if there are any deveiations from the category this needs to be recorded on the judging sheet. Control communicating with judges is key. Maybe judges need to record colour of bib as well as number. I know I always record whether it's a C1 or K1. Perhaps judging meetings need to explain the importance of recording bib numbers and colour of bibs - Shouldn't be too hard. Let's try it and see.

[Dee]

I don't think it's insurmountable either - the duplication of bibs - Judges need to be very fastidious at recording the categories they are judging: This is usually in one block but if there are any deveiations from the category this needs to be recorded on the judging sheet. Control communicating with judges is key. Maybe judges need to record colour of bib as well as number. I know I always record whether it's a C1 or K1. Perhaps judging meetings need to explain the importance of recording bib numbers and colour of bibs - Shouldn't be too hard. Let's try it and see.

I agree, it shouldn't be too hard.
It was explained at judges meeting that it was important to record class
But, unfortunately we have to be realistic, in the real world a substantial number of judges do NOT record class. Judges are not fastidious!
And when lots of competitors turn up without bibs, then bib colour becomes useless.
We DID "try it and see" and I stand by my conclusion that to make paddling up work reliably and without errors, we need to have unique bibs within a class.

[Jaytee]

Good straightforward explanation of paddling up now on main Slalom UK website http://www.canoeslalom.co.uk/info/paddling_up.htm Thanks Nick.

Meantime 'identical bib numbers' is going to be a little headache for organisers - it happened again at the Cardiff Prem. "Extra care & vigilance" is all very well, but the potential for problems is definitely there.

[Canadian Paddler]

Identical bib numbers has been a problem for years anyway. They accounted fro my most recent protest (many years ago)

As Yellow bib 2 in C1, I was close behing K1M bib 2. He had a bad run and gave up mid course getting lots of 50s, that were recorded on my card... I KNEW I had not missed that many gates, easily sorted, the order on the page made it obvious who got what and he admitted to a bad run and giving up. The same should be possible for kayaks or C1s paddling up with duplicate numbers.