Div 4 promotion - A quick question ...

Ken Trollope · Post by **Ken Trollope** » Tue May 17, 2011 1:49 pm

My programme will automatically work out Div 4 promotions for all classes as well as points for ranking divisions.

The answer to the original question is that 4 competitors should have been promoted as the numbers are based on starters not finishers. It could have, though not in this case, affected others classes as some promotions are based on the last promoted mans time.

Perhaps a clarification to the rules at the ACM is needed, I have made a note of this.

Ken

andya · Post by **andya** » Tue May 17, 2011 1:56 pm

Jim replied on email to me, this clears it up...

Andy
Promotion from Div4 K1 Men is 1 in 5 based on those who started at least 1 run - if 16 Started then 4 are promoted. Hopfully the Ranking officer will pick this up.
Regards Jim

The only reason I picked this up is I believe this has happened before @ Winchester Autumn 09. Exactly the same where a D4K1M competitor (Bib2) capsized on first run and didn't do second. I think this effected 1 Kayak promotion, and 3 Canadian at this event alone, but as the results were never published or sent out I can't confirm either way.

JamesH · Post by **JamesH** » Wed May 18, 2011 12:53 pm

OK Andy, thanks for the clarification. I'll have to go back to my div 4 results/ranking sheets and change the K1M results and check whether it makes any difference to any of the other classes racing in Div 4 at North Walls.

Cheers,
James

andya · Post by **andya** » Wed May 18, 2011 8:50 pm

Nice one James, good plan. I'm sure Callum Gelver (and his proud parents) will thank you!

Good news is I don't think Callum's promotion effects any other promotions at this event.

Dee · Post by **Dee** » Thu May 19, 2011 10:11 am

Munchkin's query remains though - what to do with Callum's results from HPP.

Don't know how he did at the weekend and I don't think there is anything in the rules that caters for retrospectively realigning points when a paddler has inadvertently competed in the wrong division.

However, personally I would (at this level)
- give him the points that he would have received in div 3

For those remaining in div 4
- promote anyone who would have been promoted in div 4 if Callum hadn't have been there. (This would only apply if Callum had been a promotee at HPP)
- not de-promote anyone that wouldn't have been promoted (eg if 16 paddlers with Callum and 15 without then I would leave the 4 promotions to stand)

For those in div 3
- given that official results have not been published, I think I would adjust points, unless Callum has come in top 3 (say), in which case I'd probably give him his points and leave everyone else as is. (Further down the line a different approach might be necessary)
- Equally, I think I'd adjust results for Hayden Ellis if he shouldn't have been in div 3. (Not much can be done directly for Hayden though, as div 2 and 3 courses were rather different) (PS can't find him in Wagon Lane results at all).

This is just a personal opinion; ranking officers will decision will be final!

I'm not sure how we get round the problem of delays in publishing results. Organiser's have 15 days according to the rule book. For those receiving the results it would be nice to shorten that timescale. However, from personal experience the run up to the race is pretty hectic and I need at least a week to recover before I start issuing final results and all the rest of the post-race forms. So as an organiser, I would fight the reduction of that 15 days. Any ideas?

Munchkin · Post by **Munchkin** » Thu May 19, 2011 10:19 am

I think Joyn got the Greenstar name wrong. It's Josh Dando that was promoted at Wagon Lane.

I have a Div 4 competitor that should have Bern in Div 3 and a Div 3 competitor that should have been in Div 2. Guess why the results are not up yet!!!

Dee · Post by **Dee** » Thu May 19, 2011 10:57 am

Ah well! At least you can sort the results out sitting down and rest that aching leg!

andya · Post by **andya** » Thu May 19, 2011 2:12 pm

Dee wrote:Munchkin's query remains though - what to do with Callum's results from HPP....

I'm not sure how we get round the problem of delays in publishing results. Organiser's have 15 days according to the rule book. For those receiving the results it would be nice to shorten that timescale. However, from personal experience the run up to the race is pretty hectic and I need at least a week to recover before I start issuing final results and all the rest of the post-race forms. So as an organiser, I would fight the reduction of that 15 days. Any ideas?

What a can of worms .... in theory a mistake at the start of the season on a D4 promotion could effect the final results at the end of the season at the top of D1. Like ripples in a pond, the effect magnifies over time.

A solution would be a online system of entries/ results that allows offline (xls) use during the event, then simple upload after it.

Its a big ask of organisers ... but IF all results could be uploaded within a few days as provisional, and online rankings updated in line with the provisional results. Then there could be say a week for any challenges to the provisional results by peer review, before the results are frozen as final after say 10 days.

This would not eliminate the "ripple effect", but would dramatically reduce its impact to maximum of 1 or possibly 2 events. Any discrepancies could be consistently handled by always giving any effected competitors the "best outcome", based on the info as it was at the time.

John Sturgess · Post by **John Sturgess** » Thu May 19, 2011 3:19 pm

Michelle

You are quite right - it was Josh Dando

Generally -

I suspect the answer is that we have to issue definitive results - rather than provisional ones - on the day - and ensure that while there is a system for upgrading paddlers results on appeal, they cannot be downgraded.

This already happens at International level - as a result of pressure from television - when in 2006 they got o grips with the fact that the Italian who had been announced as winner had clarly missed a gate, they dealt with it by awarding an extra gold medal.

Obviously the various electronic things mentioned would help wih this; but my suggestion would be that raher than loading the responsibility onto the organiser, who has a lot of other things to do, this would be a far more useful contribution by the Jury Chair than a lot of the things he/she is currently meant to do.The Chair would therefore have to turn up with a Friday printout of the rankings; and we would have to define those also as definitive not provisional or unofficial.

The problem is created because we use the ranking system to define what races paddlers need to go to to get ranking points - and we owe it to paddlers to enable them to decide right; or we should change that system.

andya · Post by **andya** » Fri May 20, 2011 12:05 pm

John Sturgess wrote:...

Obviously the various electronic things mentioned would help wih this; but my suggestion would be that raher than loading the responsibility onto the organiser, who has a lot of other things to do, this would be a far more useful contribution by the Jury Chair than a lot of the things he/she is currently meant to do.The Chair would therefore have to turn up with a Friday printout of the rankings; and we would have to define those also as definitive not provisional or unofficial
...

Thats a good idea John, it would help.

For the Jury chair to have the correct rankings on a Friday, wouldn't the previous weeks event have to be all published and the ranking lists re-compiled? All possible with a online system.

Taking this further a Jury Chair on a Sunday event, would need the rankings updated from the previous days event on Sat. Now that's a challenge, but again in theory possible with a online/offline/update system for events.

Dee · Post by **Dee** » Fri May 20, 2011 6:57 pm

I might be wrong but I think that it is not uncommon for jury chair to be identified on the day of the event at some 3/4 events.