I agree with Kendal's comment - why not try to attract people from other boating disciplines into having a go at slalom. There is an old marketing adage that it is up to 30 times cheaper to cross sell to an existing customer than create a new one.
The start of the long-term decline in slalom numbers pretty much coincides with the development of plastic kayaks and in particular the explosion of designs in the early to mid-1990s that were very discipline-specific. Thus the direct link between slalom and river running in particular was broken.
If you speak to most river runners and playboaters, they are not interested in slalom. Why? The two reasons most cited by river running friends to me are 1) there is a certain amount of anti-slalom feeling in particular as the slalom fraternity is perceived as being unsupportive of the access campaign 2) there is a perception that you get little time on the water doing slalom.
Neither of these perceptions are necessarily true, but they are there, so how does the slalom community combat them?
I've always tried to make the point that slalom is great for developing white water skills (it's the reason I started) but that argument seems to have fallen on deaf ears.
Maybe we need to think of combined slalom/playboating/river running events and emphasising that it is possible to get plenty of water time at a slalom. For example, play up the fact that the Bala Mill slalom is at the Trywern, thus bring your plastic as well and run the upper section once you've finished your slalom runs.
Thus in a nutshell I think the slalom community needs to be less myopic and to reach out to other disciplines. After all, when all said and done, we are all paddlers!
James
Strategy - What do you want covered?
Again have to agree with what James is saying
Its interesting that as a family my husband and son sea kayak and open canoe
I open canoe and "try" to sea kayak
My daughter always used to: sea kayak, open canoe, playboat, run rivers and surf, regularly and loved it - not any more - just slalom - she says she has no time for the other disciplines now because of slalom training commitments. and this became the case the moment she started slalom.
Are we pushing for elite at the expense of enjoyment and participation?
I really don't know the answer to this I'm just playing devils advocate
Its interesting that as a family my husband and son sea kayak and open canoe
I open canoe and "try" to sea kayak
My daughter always used to: sea kayak, open canoe, playboat, run rivers and surf, regularly and loved it - not any more - just slalom - she says she has no time for the other disciplines now because of slalom training commitments. and this became the case the moment she started slalom.
Are we pushing for elite at the expense of enjoyment and participation?
I really don't know the answer to this I'm just playing devils advocate
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Seedy Paddler
- Posts: 440
- Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 2:00 pm
And interestingly enough Boatmum you have just deomnstrated the problem on purely focusing on one common objective and not developing the overall vision of where we want the sport to be in 5, 10, 20 years.
Targetted Coaching and development as undertaken in your locale (you know I know you and I know you wish to remain anonymous so I will remain as if in the abstract!) is very effective but is is sustainable and will it deliver wider facets?
It has been very successful to date, some may argue that it may be time to switch the resources and support to a different target. If your paddlers had to pay for SCA Coaching, lease/rental access to sites and provide their own equipment - would you sustain the current level of participation and performance achieved?
For example there is a widespread recognition within sporting authorities and bodies that current levels of funding will take a significant hit post 2012, for some that may be delayed to 2014. That may mean that the funding currently providing for the SCA Coaches/Performance Director/Transport/Equipment will go. If the Startegy is based on that model then we run the risk that it will not be sustainable.
You focus on the need to increase numbers and demonstrate that the model you suggested develops performance and not necessarily participation. 25% success rate in one family of paddlers.
That is why I believe we need to develop a much fuller and rounder picture of where we want the sport to become and then break it down to more manageable objectives. Increasing numbers is not a particularly manageable objective, there are argument on the basis of numbers- for example if we base on starters, we could increase participation 100% merely be getting existing paddlers to paddle and alternative class (an objective of multi-class discount). However is that a true indication of growth? When/if a paddler retires then we have double wastage?
As with everything - the better the picture the more likely we all are to share a common understanding. If we have a common objective and a common understanding it is easier to work in unison. If we all work in unison we are more likely to achieve our objectives.
Bullet point objectives, lead to differing interpretation, provides multiple views and objectives and leads to disparate and counter productive factions. development becomes compromised.
Thos that have undertaken group dynamic training exercises may be aware of the forming, storming, norming, performing model.
Over the years this site and our common interest has allowed the "forming" to progress.
The kneejerk push to develop strategies and brainstorming is with the "Storming" phase
I would like to develop a vision that will move us to the "norming" stage - ready to feed into the "performing" development.
Unlikely as some may see it -I remain in the same camp as the "cigar" and firmly believe we need to have a far clearer picture of where we want the sport to be and not focus myopicly on a need to increase numbers.
PS I will try to ensure that my vision does not get obscured by the cigar smoke but welcome the views of others
Targetted Coaching and development as undertaken in your locale (you know I know you and I know you wish to remain anonymous so I will remain as if in the abstract!) is very effective but is is sustainable and will it deliver wider facets?
It has been very successful to date, some may argue that it may be time to switch the resources and support to a different target. If your paddlers had to pay for SCA Coaching, lease/rental access to sites and provide their own equipment - would you sustain the current level of participation and performance achieved?
For example there is a widespread recognition within sporting authorities and bodies that current levels of funding will take a significant hit post 2012, for some that may be delayed to 2014. That may mean that the funding currently providing for the SCA Coaches/Performance Director/Transport/Equipment will go. If the Startegy is based on that model then we run the risk that it will not be sustainable.
You focus on the need to increase numbers and demonstrate that the model you suggested develops performance and not necessarily participation. 25% success rate in one family of paddlers.
That is why I believe we need to develop a much fuller and rounder picture of where we want the sport to become and then break it down to more manageable objectives. Increasing numbers is not a particularly manageable objective, there are argument on the basis of numbers- for example if we base on starters, we could increase participation 100% merely be getting existing paddlers to paddle and alternative class (an objective of multi-class discount). However is that a true indication of growth? When/if a paddler retires then we have double wastage?
As with everything - the better the picture the more likely we all are to share a common understanding. If we have a common objective and a common understanding it is easier to work in unison. If we all work in unison we are more likely to achieve our objectives.
Bullet point objectives, lead to differing interpretation, provides multiple views and objectives and leads to disparate and counter productive factions. development becomes compromised.
Thos that have undertaken group dynamic training exercises may be aware of the forming, storming, norming, performing model.
Over the years this site and our common interest has allowed the "forming" to progress.
The kneejerk push to develop strategies and brainstorming is with the "Storming" phase
I would like to develop a vision that will move us to the "norming" stage - ready to feed into the "performing" development.
Unlikely as some may see it -I remain in the same camp as the "cigar" and firmly believe we need to have a far clearer picture of where we want the sport to be and not focus myopicly on a need to increase numbers.
PS I will try to ensure that my vision does not get obscured by the cigar smoke but welcome the views of others
<<It has been very successful to date, some may argue that it may be time to switch the resources and support to a different target. If your paddlers had to pay for SCA Coaching, lease/rental access to sites and provide their own equipment - would you sustain the current level of participation and performance achieved?>>
A tad unfair Seedy - we were a start up and now we do have (as a club) our own equipment coming on board thanks to fund raising efforts and our more competent paddlers do have their own kit etc. But I agree that as a start up we were incredibly lucky to get the support from our umbrella association and we are also incredibly lucky to have the national white water course on our door step - for the moment. It would seem odd not to have larger numbers of paddlers in this area given the natural environmental resources
BUT and I go back to my first observation this has ONLY been the case since we had a local coach before that there was ZERO participation from local paddlers in slalom and to be frank not much participation from youngsters in other paddle disciplines either - (we did our own thing) what catalysed the change was the presence of a qualified local coach.
So yes where do we want to be in 2, 5 and 10 years time? but my own feelings for what they are worth is that without coach development we wont get paddlers in ANY discipline.
A tad unfair Seedy - we were a start up and now we do have (as a club) our own equipment coming on board thanks to fund raising efforts and our more competent paddlers do have their own kit etc. But I agree that as a start up we were incredibly lucky to get the support from our umbrella association and we are also incredibly lucky to have the national white water course on our door step - for the moment. It would seem odd not to have larger numbers of paddlers in this area given the natural environmental resources
BUT and I go back to my first observation this has ONLY been the case since we had a local coach before that there was ZERO participation from local paddlers in slalom and to be frank not much participation from youngsters in other paddle disciplines either - (we did our own thing) what catalysed the change was the presence of a qualified local coach.So yes where do we want to be in 2, 5 and 10 years time? but my own feelings for what they are worth is that without coach development we wont get paddlers in ANY discipline.
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kendall chew
- Posts: 101
- Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:21 pm
- Location: Cheshire
We are looking at our own "chicken and egg". The sport needs more coaches to accommodate the increase in paddlers which we anticipate will turn up once 2012 has kicked off. If we increase coaching levels to slightly above the demand we get over the next two years then we have a buffer to accommodate the anticipated large increase in participation ( a coaching session capable of training 20 rookies twice a week gets only 15 paddlers. The coach is in the short term under worked but can cope with an extra ten students). Pan this out across the country and there is a good chance the sport will cope with an upsurge. Leave it until the last moment and there will be no chance at all.
I do not know how the capital cost of equipment is met on such a large investment unless more grant bids are made but, going back to my previous point about inviting existing paddlers from other disciplines to join us, the equipment investment costs are instantly reduced as they will be kitted up already. Perhaps the sport as a whole should bulk buy club boats thus invoking the economics of volume. a single order of fifty new junior slalom boats surely has to be more attractive to a supplier than a couple here and a couple there.
I do not know how the capital cost of equipment is met on such a large investment unless more grant bids are made but, going back to my previous point about inviting existing paddlers from other disciplines to join us, the equipment investment costs are instantly reduced as they will be kitted up already. Perhaps the sport as a whole should bulk buy club boats thus invoking the economics of volume. a single order of fifty new junior slalom boats surely has to be more attractive to a supplier than a couple here and a couple there.
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kendall chew
- Posts: 101
- Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:21 pm
- Location: Cheshire
Also, Surely there are many, many new graduates from outdoor Ed degrees who currently are looking for work of some sort. Can we not tempt them to join us in some form of official capacity. I understand this is a naieve comment, particularly as I have absolutely no understanding of the financial workings of the sports' governing body, but there must be a way to involve these graduates, even if it only helps with their CV's in the future?
Increased participation.
Coaching and equipment have been mentioned as limiting factors. Well, we've got coaches, we've got boats, but our barrier to participation is that we don't have any events to go to. We're all dressed up and no where to go.
We run a ranking div 3/4, we run a ranking div 4, and we run a "fun" minislalom evening series during the summer. But the value of racing at other sites and with other clubs cannot be underestimated.
Our source of new competitors is Paddlepower. We've got lots of Paddlepower paddlers. That's the age they should be encouraged. We're good at getting them into boats. We even get some interested in slalom. But after their first season, when there aren't many events, and they find there's so much travel let alone joining the BCU/CE for one weekend a year, they all disappear. I totally agree with Dee when she says
How can I create a sensible programme of training and competition when there are so few events to go to. That's sad, because training for slalom improves their general paddling, but when there are no events to focus their training it all falls apart. And now with Loddon gone, and I see North Walls moved to the beginning and end of the season, it's even worse. We can't do it on our own. It's got to be kick-started centrally.
Coaching and equipment have been mentioned as limiting factors. Well, we've got coaches, we've got boats, but our barrier to participation is that we don't have any events to go to. We're all dressed up and no where to go.
We run a ranking div 3/4, we run a ranking div 4, and we run a "fun" minislalom evening series during the summer. But the value of racing at other sites and with other clubs cannot be underestimated.
Our source of new competitors is Paddlepower. We've got lots of Paddlepower paddlers. That's the age they should be encouraged. We're good at getting them into boats. We even get some interested in slalom. But after their first season, when there aren't many events, and they find there's so much travel let alone joining the BCU/CE for one weekend a year, they all disappear. I totally agree with Dee when she says
"It seems easy enough to find youngsters willing to have a go but as soon as they (and their parents) realise what is involved in travelling to events then they vapourise."
How can I create a sensible programme of training and competition when there are so few events to go to. That's sad, because training for slalom improves their general paddling, but when there are no events to focus their training it all falls apart. And now with Loddon gone, and I see North Walls moved to the beginning and end of the season, it's even worse. We can't do it on our own. It's got to be kick-started centrally.
John Kent
Hi John
I am aware of the dilemma for you, living in the SW myself - but it isn't all about what happens centrally, although that is important too - we need clubs in all regions to be prepared to put events on, particularly in div 2,3 & 4 travelling a bit further at 1 is inevitable to get suitable water -we need the regions to take a bit of ownership here.I know committee members would be happy to be at new/revived venues and help get off the ground, both colin I offered when Exeter was suggested.
I am aware of the dilemma for you, living in the SW myself - but it isn't all about what happens centrally, although that is important too - we need clubs in all regions to be prepared to put events on, particularly in div 2,3 & 4 travelling a bit further at 1 is inevitable to get suitable water -we need the regions to take a bit of ownership here.I know committee members would be happy to be at new/revived venues and help get off the ground, both colin I offered when Exeter was suggested.
Thanks for the participation.
I agree we need short (2 year) medium (5 year) and long (10 year) targets of where we want to be, in essence some clarity around the vision. There will be decreasing detail with increasing time. It also has to be dynamic and enable responsiveness to changing circumstances. The strategy must be subject to change and development.
2012 represents an opportunity for many sports, of which Slalom is but one, to benefit from a surge of interest. We need to be able to respond to and and sustain increased participation from it.
Increased participation is an increased number of paddlers committing to the sport and might I suggest measuring this as the numbers progressing to Div 2 level year on year.
The performance coaches have indicated a willingness to participate in the process and while their perspective is important the sport must have a broad enough base to deliver potential to them and I believe maintain a good UK based racing programme to test them.
There is clearly an importance in coaching however like everything else, alone it cannot deliver.
There are issues around equity of access to coaching, appropriate water, adequate equipment etc. This also extends I expect to racing 'locally' and we need to understand what we mean by this e.g. the discussions around Shepperton and Llandysul at the ACM.
Other issues which have been raised elsewhere include an apparent increasing level of injuries amongst junior paddlers. If this is real how should we be responding to it.
Are paddlers paddling at the right level (both water and difficulty of the course) e.g. is a Div 1 K1M truly at the same level as a Div 1 K1W?
Grading of courses - see elsewhere on this board the good work that JS has started.
Financial viability is a key issue which we have to tackle, the cost of artificial courses is clearly challenging and the cost of running the support services, central admin, judging, timing etc are increasing at the unit cost level. While increased participation is a target it may not be possible to increase the capacity of many races where numbers are potentially limited by many factors e.g. length of daylight (Tully at Easter), rafting, duration of water release etc. Yes we can put up entry fees but in the present financial climate would this be a downwards pressure on participation. What makes an attractive race?
As a sport there is a massive dependence on volunteers, how do we support them to both make them feel valued and ensure a culture of quality.
What is it that drives many to start competing and then 'drop out'? What can we do about it? Are their issues of perceived safety (or lack of it) or is it all down to a need for more parental engagement e.g. traveling, cost of equipment etc.
Slalom must co-exist and cherish the relationships that we have with other paddlesports from Sea to extreme whitewater, from surf to Sprint. They are not of necessity mutually exclusive e.g. many slalom paddlers also participate in Canoe polo and a few in river running. Some that start in Slalom may find their forte in Sprint and others may come into Slalom with properly managed opportunities to try.
I have probably already waffled on too much so it is back to you for more comment please.
Oh and please all habve a Great Christmas and New Year - see you next Year!
Peter
I agree we need short (2 year) medium (5 year) and long (10 year) targets of where we want to be, in essence some clarity around the vision. There will be decreasing detail with increasing time. It also has to be dynamic and enable responsiveness to changing circumstances. The strategy must be subject to change and development.
2012 represents an opportunity for many sports, of which Slalom is but one, to benefit from a surge of interest. We need to be able to respond to and and sustain increased participation from it.
Increased participation is an increased number of paddlers committing to the sport and might I suggest measuring this as the numbers progressing to Div 2 level year on year.
The performance coaches have indicated a willingness to participate in the process and while their perspective is important the sport must have a broad enough base to deliver potential to them and I believe maintain a good UK based racing programme to test them.
There is clearly an importance in coaching however like everything else, alone it cannot deliver.
There are issues around equity of access to coaching, appropriate water, adequate equipment etc. This also extends I expect to racing 'locally' and we need to understand what we mean by this e.g. the discussions around Shepperton and Llandysul at the ACM.
Other issues which have been raised elsewhere include an apparent increasing level of injuries amongst junior paddlers. If this is real how should we be responding to it.
Are paddlers paddling at the right level (both water and difficulty of the course) e.g. is a Div 1 K1M truly at the same level as a Div 1 K1W?
Grading of courses - see elsewhere on this board the good work that JS has started.
Financial viability is a key issue which we have to tackle, the cost of artificial courses is clearly challenging and the cost of running the support services, central admin, judging, timing etc are increasing at the unit cost level. While increased participation is a target it may not be possible to increase the capacity of many races where numbers are potentially limited by many factors e.g. length of daylight (Tully at Easter), rafting, duration of water release etc. Yes we can put up entry fees but in the present financial climate would this be a downwards pressure on participation. What makes an attractive race?
As a sport there is a massive dependence on volunteers, how do we support them to both make them feel valued and ensure a culture of quality.
What is it that drives many to start competing and then 'drop out'? What can we do about it? Are their issues of perceived safety (or lack of it) or is it all down to a need for more parental engagement e.g. traveling, cost of equipment etc.
Slalom must co-exist and cherish the relationships that we have with other paddlesports from Sea to extreme whitewater, from surf to Sprint. They are not of necessity mutually exclusive e.g. many slalom paddlers also participate in Canoe polo and a few in river running. Some that start in Slalom may find their forte in Sprint and others may come into Slalom with properly managed opportunities to try.
I have probably already waffled on too much so it is back to you for more comment please.
Oh and please all habve a Great Christmas and New Year - see you next Year!
Peter
Barriers to participation...
I have been triyng to increase participation from my club for a number of years now. I have managed to convince people to go along to local events (even Peterborough which is an hour away on the promise of cakes!) but those that don't go back to events complain about 2 things:
1. Lots of hanging around; and
2. Cost.
When weighing up the two they see that they can go for a weekend paddling in Wales for the same cost as attending any non-local event and they can have a lot more time on the water. I can see their point completely. I think we need to be looking at ways that we can offer "value for money" without increasing our costs. Things such as the kayakcross at HPP are a step in the right direction and I think that we need to consider things like that (and free coaching in the morning followed by competition in the afternoon structures) particularly at lower division events.
From my point of view I think we need to working on coach availability. There are two groups of people that I think generally struggle to get coaching and I think these groups are actually majorities rather than minority groups:
1. Adults (especially if not member of slalom clubs but even if they are I think they are often expected to coach or do not recieve targeted coaching); and
2. Juniors that are not members of slalom clubs.
We need to have coaching events that are open to all, well advertised and spread out throughout the country. If the SE, SW and E regions are particularly low in paddler numbers maybe targeting those regions on a trial basis first. People need to remember that adults bring children into the sport and should not be forgotten and not all children are fortunate enough to live near slalom based clubs (not want to limit their paddling just to slalom).
I have been triyng to increase participation from my club for a number of years now. I have managed to convince people to go along to local events (even Peterborough which is an hour away on the promise of cakes!) but those that don't go back to events complain about 2 things:
1. Lots of hanging around; and
2. Cost.
When weighing up the two they see that they can go for a weekend paddling in Wales for the same cost as attending any non-local event and they can have a lot more time on the water. I can see their point completely. I think we need to be looking at ways that we can offer "value for money" without increasing our costs. Things such as the kayakcross at HPP are a step in the right direction and I think that we need to consider things like that (and free coaching in the morning followed by competition in the afternoon structures) particularly at lower division events.
From my point of view I think we need to working on coach availability. There are two groups of people that I think generally struggle to get coaching and I think these groups are actually majorities rather than minority groups:
1. Adults (especially if not member of slalom clubs but even if they are I think they are often expected to coach or do not recieve targeted coaching); and
2. Juniors that are not members of slalom clubs.
We need to have coaching events that are open to all, well advertised and spread out throughout the country. If the SE, SW and E regions are particularly low in paddler numbers maybe targeting those regions on a trial basis first. People need to remember that adults bring children into the sport and should not be forgotten and not all children are fortunate enough to live near slalom based clubs (not want to limit their paddling just to slalom).
Anne wrote:Hi John
I am aware of the dilemma for you, living in the SW myself - but it isn't all about what happens centrally, although that is important too - we need clubs in all regions to be prepared to put events on, particularly in div 2,3 & 4 travelling a bit further at 1 is inevitable to get suitable water -we need the regions to take a bit of ownership here.I know committee members would be happy to be at new/revived venues and help get off the ground, both colin I offered when Exeter was suggested.
John, first time on this board for me for a while, and I found myself nodding in agreement throughout your post .. we have, training sites, paddlers, coaches (now boats) ... etc. etc ... BUT NO EVENTS.
My 14 year old son should be pushing into D2 this year, and if he still enjoys it, D1 next. But look at the events within 100 miles. Last year he completed in 4 slaloms. THATS ALL. This year it looks similar. Now this is from someone who is dead keen, supportive parents & good club. But nowhere to compete ...
When I was his age I got to 31 slaloms in a year .. but last year we could only get such a dedicated D3 paddler to 4 events .. within a 6 hour round trip.
Now Anne you say in the quote .. it has to happen regionally .. well to do that we need local and regional organisers. Having organised a slalom again this year for the first time in 25 years I personally could not believe, how little things had moved on, and if anything there is even more red tape and burocoracy than there used to be. I found my slalom organising experiences this year so bad, I have decided to withdraw from orgainsing slaloms. Put simply the grief (some of it from slalom committee members) was not worth it.
So to make it easy for organisers to get enthusuiastic about slalom again, I suggest we need a complete rethink of the "current processes".
- As Mark Shaw suggested. Replace current systems for results, entries, rankings, bibs .. etc with one online system. Sure it may tread on a few toes .. but a D4SC slalom having to send 12 envelopes of paper results round the country ... That's crazy in this modern world.
- Simplify the rules, up to D2 to make it easy for organisers. So what if on flat water poles are adustable from the water? etc.etc..
- I see steps are been made to reduce or eliminate the vast leadtimes for planning events. This is good, and need to be pushed further We live in an online world, if I want to organise a low division event next weekend, then its easy to get the message out to local paddlers ... online organiation/entry systems .. etc needs to be there to support me doing this.
- Make it fun again, Keep It Simple. Simple quick local slaloms worked for us this year .. we had more paddlers, in non ranked events than ranked. (and 3 local slaloms took a fraction of my time and the club resources, than one ranking SC D4 took)
In short I suggest the challenge for slalom is to transform in a sport with an modern organisation infrastructure, and Keep it Simple. Simple to organise, simple to enter, and FUN.
(mumble: Now where did I put all those bib vouchers .. and where do I get the 8 envelopes I need, to send them back where they came from .... )
Andy
(D1 K1 1981, D2 C1&C2 2010)
(D1 K1 1981, D2 C1&C2 2010)
Making everything electronic and on-line has to be the way to go - it's quicker it's arguably more environmentally friendly and to be honest the argument that not everyone has access to a computer is I would suggests almost redundant - by all means leave the paper option open for those who prefer it but please let's make an on-line organisation system available.
I run my own business and we operate a paperless office policy - however in the corner of my office is probably a forest or more of slalom paperwork - it's a complete nonsense in the 21st century
I run my own business and we operate a paperless office policy - however in the corner of my office is probably a forest or more of slalom paperwork - it's a complete nonsense in the 21st century