Slalom Struture - The structure of doemstic competition

[Canadian Paddler]

Regional matches with the document for div 2, div 3/4 should not be too close so that also fits.

Little question, given the lack of regional reps on the canoe england slalom committee, do we really think that regional organisers for the calendar will be found, and what benefit does this give over national organisation, except of course that you are treating div 1 as regional not national.

Perhaps rather than trying to find a solution, we should look at and debate the assumptions. Is div 1 national, or do the few of us here think it regional? How does a div 1 organiser decide where to apply for their event - National or Regional - after all the committee co-ordinates requests and tries to manage them.
What sort of competion are we trying to hold, do you disagree with that assumption?

Obviously (nailing self to mast) I think it is a national division, and events should be based on the profile of what we are trying to do, I would not try to run div 1 (or even div 2) in East Anglia, it is too flat and the water is not testing enough. Maybe I am stuck in the past with Llandysul being a div 2/3 held early/late in the season, Tail being a div 2, Graveyard div 2's, Orton Mere Novice having to cross the top wave. . . Enjoying paddlingagainst a large field much more than a small field.

Do we keep div 2,3,4 on small water, with a big step up to 1/p or do we have a graduation of difficulty?

With the proposed number of events, no one needs to drive London to Tully (or Tully to London), only 5 events count, and there are proposals to hold 13 events, less than 40% of total races will count.

That's it I am going quiet for a while again to let the debate develop, just hope that a few more contribute, so far less people have contributed here than reviewed the document before it was published.

[Flipper]

Hi Dee. OK, Tully's more than 8 hours, I've slowed up since my ban!
Lets get down to specifics for the neck of the woods I'm familiar with....
Prem (national committee control) Cardiff x 1; Broxbourne x 1 assuming the costs aren't astromonical
D1 Cardiff x 1, Broxbourne x 1 (with Prems)
D1/2 Shepperton x 1
D2/3 Old Windsor or Hambledon x 1; Dart or Exe x 1 (plus of course Nene and Cardington reasonably accessible)
D3/4 Shepperton x 2; Yalding x 2; Loddon x 1; Langham x 1; Harefield x 1 (plus access to Nene, Cardington, Orton etc)
D4 Frome Market Yard, Winchester

[Flipper]

............oh, and Dysul too.......

[Munchkin]

Regional matches with the document for div 2, div 3/4 should not be too close so that also fits.

Little question, given the lack of regional reps on the canoe england slalom committee, do we really think that regional organisers for the calendar will be found, and what benefit does this give over national organisation, except of course that you are treating div 1 as regional not national.

I am the rep for the Eastern Region and have attempted to contact ALL clubs listed by the BCU in my region to offer help to increase participation from Div 4 upwards.

I percieved my job was to offer help and where wanted advice to all clubs irregardless of the level of event that they want to hold BUT that as a REGION we should be concentrating on increasing Div 3/4 events and working on Div 2 events where the water standard allows for it. The view I held was that Div 4 - 2 events were regional as at that level people are still getting into the sport. Div 1/ P were national and should only be held on appropriate standard water.

My concern about the suggestions of including Div 1 in a regional capacity is that Div 1 events will be held on unsuitable water just because that region doesn't have a suitable venue. The Eastern region currently doesn't have anything suitable for a Div 1 and even when Broxborne opens it will be prohibitively expensive. Even when looking at Div 1's at a national level I think we are holding events on water that is not suitable just to ensure a spread of events, this will only get worse.

Having spoken to people who have been in the sport for more years than I have been alive ( :p ) there seems to be a concern that Div 1 these days is the standard that Div 2 was at in the old days*, if this is the case then should we really be looking at a regional system that threatens to water the standard down any further?

Yes, we need to be accessable to everyone and yes, it is expensive attending events far away from where you are (I know, I have attended every Div 1 event this year (bar one) and most Prem events!) but is this really a reason not to increase standards?

*I can't get involved in a debate on whether this is true as I was not alive!!!

[Dee]

If you thing that they cannot meet “Other sites may be considered if they can provide the correct level of difficulty.” and you are willing to say so, then I know a few people that will disagree. The same applies to Sheppy. I omitted these sites only to try to avoid having a discussion of if they would match the level of difficulty and to look at the overall aims and picture.

In principle this may be OK, but as a result of this paper (or so I believe), Sheppy div 1/2 has been removed from the 2011 calendar and since the comments on Sheppy are often that it is too hard, I'm unconvinced and confused.

I think it is a national division, and events should be based on the profile of what we are trying to do, I would not try to run div 1 (or even div 2) in East Anglia, it is too flat and the water is not testing enough.

Since div 1 provides a home for both "ageing dossers" and aspiring prems it has a split personality. National is fine for aspiring prems but can the sport really afford to loose the dossers (ageing or otherwise).

Do we keep div 2,3,4 on small water, with a big step up to 1/p or do we have a graduation of difficulty?

Graduation, which means some div 1/2 events to bridge the gap.

no one needs to drive London to Tully (or Tully to London),

Ok this is worse case, but some of us think everyone should have at least one div 1 event within a reasonable drive and that events should be doubles to justify the travel.

Flipper:

Prem (national committee control) Cardiff x 1; Broxbourne x 1 assuming the costs aren't astromonical
D1 Cardiff x 1, Broxbourne x 1 (with Prems)
D1/2 Shepperton x 1

I think it is unlikely that a div 1 will be run at Cardiff or Broxbourne (and there is nothing in 2011 draft calendar to indicate otherwise). This is a huge shame but I'm guessing is down to costs and of course the Shepperton race you refer to has been removed from the calendar for 2011 (request for a double was in on time)

[Munchkin]

Regional matches with the document for div 2, div 3/4 should not be too close so that also fits.

Little question, given the lack of regional reps on the canoe england slalom committee, do we really think that regional organisers for the calendar will be found, and what benefit does this give over national organisation, except of course that you are treating div 1 as regional not national.

I am the rep for the Eastern Region and have attempted to contact ALL clubs listed by the BCU in my region to offer help to increase participation from Div 4 upwards.

I percieved my job was to offer help and where wanted advice to all clubs irregardless of the level of event that they want to hold BUT that as a REGION we should be concentrating on increasing Div 3/4 events and working on Div 2 events where the water standard allows for it. The view I held was that Div 4 - 2 events were regional as at that level people are still getting into the sport. Div 1/ P were national and should only be held on appropriate standard water.

My concern about the suggestions of including Div 1 in a regional capacity is that Div 1 events will be held on unsuitable water just because that region doesn't have a suitable venue. The Eastern region currently doesn't have anything suitable for a Div 1 and even when Broxborne opens it will be prohibitively expensive. Even when looking at Div 1's at a national level I think we are holding events on water that is not suitable just to ensure a spread of events, this will only get worse.

Having spoken to people who have been in the sport for more years than I have been alive ( :p ) there seems to be a concern that Div 1 these days is the standard that Div 2 was at in the old days*, if this is the case then should we really be looking at a regional system that threatens to water the standard down any further?

Yes, we need to be accessable to everyone and yes, it is expensive attending events far away from where you are (I know, I have attended every Div 1 event this year (bar one) and most Prem events!) but is this really a reason not to increase standards?

*I can't get involved in a debate on whether this is true as I was not alive!!!

P.S. I forgot to add. If anyone wants to contact me about events in our region please feel free, it may be that my email did not go to the right person??? So far I have had two clubs contact me that are trying to return to slalom so we should have some new/ old names back on the Div 3/4 calendar next year

[andya]

even when Broxborne opens it will be prohibitively expensive.

That if I may say is the elephant in the room here. Facilities been developed that can't be used to develop the sport in a region, because of cost.

IMHO paying for water fees, to give all developing paddlers access to good water does need a national strategy, and preferably central grant funding (not paddler funding).

Otherwise, BB with become, and CIWW will continue to be, white water theme parks, not slalom venues.

This is where the real long term sustainable slalom strategy is needed ...

[Flipper]

Someone educate me.
Back in the "Good Old Days" (yes I was alive but had a bike stuck up my bum, didn't know kayaks existed), the Div1 / Prem events were at a higher standard. Really? Where were they run? Has water got mystically flatter over the years? I thought it was Tryweryn, Tully, HPP, Shepperton, all the same old places. If the sport's been made easier that's surely been down to rule changes and course setting??? Just curious.

Dee - I wholeheartedly agree about Cardiff and Broxy, just float them optimistically as candidates in case I'm wrong. My belief is that gravity fed courses are the only viable long term solution. Pumps = huge energy costs. 1 cumec = 1 tonne of water a second. We are talking megawatts to lift (say) 12 cumecs 3 meters - 36 tonne-meters/sec. How many megawatts is that?

[oldschool]

Are we suggesting that you will only be allowed to race and get ranked in your region/super region/area? If so its an absolute non starter.

If you want paddlers to progress they need to gain experience on different water and race sites.

People will go to the race sites that they feel able to race on, and through our club we are introducing developing paddlers to different water as they come up on the calendar AND are appropriate to their progression through the sport.

Surley we are not going to force people to race within their region? If people want to travel an 800 mile round trip who are we to stop them?

You don't just take a kid to a race for them to get a good result, you take them to get experience, infact this season we are desperate for a couple of kids not to get good results and therfore promoted too soon. Even with the current selection of Div1 courses to race on little kids shouldn't get promoted too soon just to get spanked for the next 12/18/24 months, it does their confidence no good whatsoever.

Or have i miss interpeted some of the arguments? It seems that we are suggesting that a regional divisional structure upto div 2 would best serve the sport. I disagree. Yes we should try and promote the sport in some areas (London, South west/east), but we should be looking to add these events into the exsiting calendar. Yes there will always be clashes, whether within slalom, other canoeing disiplines or life in the rest of the world, but a division should be run nationally. In an extreme case what would be to stop someone moving into a weaker region just to get promoted? And how would people get promoted into prem?



I feel that what we have now works pretty well. I would like to see race sites graded to make sure that people can't get promoted on water not suitable for the next division.

So for example picking two sites at random you couldn't get promoted to Div 1 with 3 wins at Sowerby bridge and Matlock (not that these are bad sites) but you need at least one/two counting results from a bigger site like Hpp or Tully. So in effect you have a div 2a site and a div2b site. Would anyone support this?

This would stop people getting promoted before they are capable of handelling the next level up.

[Dee]

Surley we are not going to force people to race within their region? If people want to travel an 800 mile round trip who are we to stop them?

I don't think anyone is trying to prevent people from travelling 800 mile round trip; just trying to give the option of nearer events if they so choose!

[oldschool]

Someone educate me.
Back in the "Good Old Days" (yes I was alive but had a bike stuck up my bum, didn't know kayaks existed), the Div1 / Prem events were at a higher standard. Really? Where were they run? Has water got mystically flatter over the years? I thought it was Tryweryn, Tully, HPP, Shepperton, all the same old places. If the sport's been made easier that's surely been down to rule changes and course setting??? Just curious.

I'm afraid so. I'm no where near as good as i was when i was last in div 1 and pushing for promotion in 1997 and then achiving it in 98(i think thats the right years), but i'm still getting 900+ point results this time around even with my excess weight.

It seemed to me courses have got far less technical on the whole, and now have few or no "crunch" moves using water features. Staggers are a lot straighter, meaning that "back offs" and "Spins" are of a bygone era. Some of this is due to advances in short boats and rule changes(ie only judging head and boat, not head, shoulders and boat, along with poles 8 inches from the water instead of 6).

This is just my opinion but courses are easy at the moment. But yes most of this is down to course setting and to and extent rule changes. Although you did at one time have to attend a course designers course in order to set a prem/1 course this seems to have disappeared since my return.

[Munchkin]

Or have i miss interpeted some of the arguments? It seems that we are suggesting that a regional divisional structure upto div 2 would best serve the sport. I disagree. Yes we should try and promote the sport in some areas (London, South west/east), but we should be looking to add these events into the exsiting calendar. Yes there will always be clashes, whether within slalom, other canoeing disiplines or life in the rest of the world, but a division should be run nationally. In an extreme case what would be to stop someone moving into a weaker region just to get promoted? And how would people get promoted into prem?

Noooooooooooooooooooo! Sorry....... That is not what I meant if that is how it came across... If you are talking about the discussion that the others were having before then, perhaps, that is what they meant.

I think that at div 3/4 and to some extent div 2 there should be enough events at a regional level to ensure that people can try the sport and start progressing through the divisions without having to travel far to do so. This can be done by encourraging lots of div 3/4 events within each region (and, as I said before, if there is appropriate standard of water div 2 events). Does it matter if we have 50 div 4 events in one region if it encourrages more people into the sport? No, I don't think so. I think this is what the policy document is pointing towards and reflects the current reality.

These events will fully form part of the national timetable/ rankings and will be free for everyone to join in no matter what region (yes, even those P/1's, pick up a new paddler and have a go in a C2 at your local 3/4 event, it can be fun )

[andya]

My reading of it was a regional organised and managed structure.

But paddlers obviously can go national, or cross region to compete wherever, and whenever. they liked.


Not wanting to divert the thread by looking back (but sorry can't resist)... .. the water may not have changed (apart from CT). But the grading of slaloms has changed over the years. Shep. used to be a 2. I clearly remembered the first Div1 at Hambledon, then astonishment in latter years as it got a Prem! Likewise llandysul used to be a max D2. There is only one site I can think of that bucks the trend. Washburn used to be a P/1.

In the old days I remember been scared stiff as a Div3 at the teethpuller (Linton in flood), 6 gate Sheperton crosses on a D3, or surfing 3 foot waves on a cross in a D3 @ Middleton in good water. Top wave at Peterborough.. even for Novices .. etc.. etc.

These days I find its amazing I've just got promoted to D2 in C1 .. and I've never put a C1 paddle stroke into moving water .. ever .. in my life... !

Lets also remember poles on the water (latter 10cm), 10 secs a touch (either pole) and reverse gates ....

So is slalom easier these days - YES!
Is the water in a division easier - YES!

If you had told me 25 years ago that you could hold a D2, D3 and Novice slalom on the same course .. I'd still have been rolling around laughing at the ludicrous suggestion now. Come to think about a Div3 and Novice would have been all but unthinkable (historical note .. there used to be a thousand plus in D4, and no one ever counted Novices it would have made the yearbook into a telephone directory)

Now having cleared that up .. back to the thread ... :p

[Flipper]

Hi Oldschool.
"Are we suggesting that you will only be allowed to race and get ranked in your region/super region/area? If so its an absolute non starter."

Absolutey NO thought of restricting racing and promotions to regions. All rankings must remain National as now. All events open to anyone who wants to make the trip. Just that each "region" is tasked with sorting out a calendar matched to its own paddlers needs, the national picture becomes a sum of these. It should be organised to make it necessary to travel for SOME events further afield to stack enough the promotion points. Luckily HPP is in the middle of England so for most it becomes a great unavoidable cross-roads/ meeting point/ reference venue. And its not pumped . And my paddlers who have a granny living next to Tully can organise their family visits around that if they want.

[djberriman]

As well as Munchkins complaint I've had a complaint directly from a member of the timing team regarding this comment.

"Similarly (and up front I will say I do greatly value the individuals contributions without whom we don't have a sport) it appears we are restricting the calendar to fit the current timing team to reduce them being overworked rather than looking at increasing the number of volunteers in the team so they perhaps do one event in 2 or 3 rather than being asked to do every event."

I for one can not see the issue with the suggestion. I apologise again as I have clearly upset some very valuable volunteers which was not my intention.

it seems we can not have a discussion so I not will be taking any further part.

Duncan